Section 31 Obsession. Not Me Though.

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Tesral
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Re: Section 31 Obsession. Not Me Though.

Post by Tesral » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:14 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm

No, the Prime Directive isn't a joke. It's completely valid and it isn't as rigid as it appears. Just like Picard wasn't as PC as people make him out to be. PC is just a term that people through around to dump on progressive attitudes that include everyone, and exclude no one. PC is a horseshit term made up by the extreme right and used in absolutes by the extreme left.
You missed the point. As it was never fully stated is IS a joke. A straw man argument. That said it can be corrected to be a policy that works and is not a joke, as I have tried to do.

The Writers are all over the map on the matter of the never fully stated prime directive. I think that point is obvious. This week break it, next week watch an entire world die, in the name of "not unnaturally interfering".

I have my say on the Prime Directive in two tales. The Sins of the Sons, and The First Principle.
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.
"I saw it done on Voyager" is no excuse for anything, even breathing.

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Re: Section 31 Obsession. Not Me Though.

Post by WarpNein » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:28 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm
"5) Our way is not the universal way. Don't shove it down anyone throat."

And it really backs up the non-interference rule in that, not interfering in out cultures issues, does allow them to evolve or die as if the Federation wasn't there. Just because they do see an issue, and CAN solve it, doesn't mean that gives them the right to. Even IF asked.

Those who decided it was time to welcome Earth into the fold, but while doing so, refrain from interfering with their natural development until they caught up on their own. It was inevitable that Earth and Vulcan would meet (being so close together), so it made sense for the Vulcans to make first contact. But their decision NOT to interfere was both correct, and led to that very same principal to become incorporated into their future relationship when the Federation was formed. Not to interfere. No matter how much it !!!!!!!! off humans, they couldn't just hand them technologies. They had to learn and evolve naturally. You could argue that their very presence was interference, but that presence was inevitable. Earth was ready to leave the solar system and Vulcan was next door.
There is a contradiction inherent in this though. What you stated is basically what Picard told Chancellor Durkin in "First Contact". "To radically transform a society with technology would be destructive". He's right of course, but the Federation policy of initiating First Contact with newly warp capable or soon-to-be warp capable species is in itself an act of interference that presupposes a universal way. The Federation's rationale is that it is better to meet that way than have a confrontation once the newly warp capable species begins to expand out into a galactic community of which it is not yet aware. It's a good rationale, but the mere act of introducing themselves does constitute interference based on an assumed universal value.
patrickivan wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm
No, the Prime Directive isn't a joke. It's completely valid and it isn't as rigid as it appears. Just like Picard wasn't as PC as people make him out to be. PC is just a term that people through around to dump on progressive attitudes that include everyone, and exclude no one. PC is a horseshit term made up by the extreme right and used in absolutes by the extreme left.
At the risk of lawn-darting this thread straight into the ground, including everyone is impossible, unless the groups believe in nothing, value nothing and advocate nothing. As soon as you form a group around a defined idea, activity or goal, you necessarily exclude those who don't share it. And no effort should be made to include the outsiders when it risks the very ideas, activities or values around which the group coalesced in the first place. I refer back to Picard dressing down Worf in "Reunion."

"The Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets, Mister Worf. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But every member of the crew has chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his duties because of the demands of his society, he must resign."

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Re: Section 31 Obsession. Not Me Though.

Post by Tesral » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:42 am

It is short. To wit:

The Conundrum of the Prime Directive
~ Prohibits Starfleet personnel or ships from interfering in the normal development of any society, and mandates that they sacrifice themselves if necessary to prevent such interference. ~ (No source I found exactly words this order. All sources only explain its intent, usually in the terms above.)


Since Star Trek first aired many people have debated the exact meaning and intent of the Prime Directive. Star Trek itself has debated it within the show, and the outcomes of several episodes have hinged on how this week's writer sees it.

The main problem with the wording of the prime directive as (not) given is that the most strict interpretation would require everyone to go home and hide under the bed. We cannot interfere. We cannot more specifically "unnaturally interfere". I ask; what is unnatural interference?

By this statement the "Prime Directive" assumes that we are somehow a meta-natural event. I strongly disagree. We are natural. Human cities are complete analogs in nature to termite mounds. How are we fit to judge if our dropping out of the sky, or not dropping out of the sky, is a natural event in the development of a culture? It could well be argued that the human race is in the muddle it is in because we lacked the mentoring of a more mature species. If you had lousy parents does that mean it is good for everyone to have lousy parents? That suddenly, "lousy parents" are the standard everyone should grow up by? It might be the normal course of events that younger species are mentored by more advanced ones, and that Humans are the red-headed stepchildren of the galaxy because they lack such a mentor.

Furthermore it allows us to judge whether a culture is "naturally developing". By what standards does one natural creature judge what is "natural development" for another creature it knows nothing about? The Prime Directive, as stated, is nothing less than playing God, and congratulating ourselves for doing so. We the meta-natural event of the galaxy have the power and right to decide if your culture is natural. No matter how bad it might abuse you, if we think it is natural, hands off. No matter how well it works for you, if we think it is unnatural, we can interfere all we want.

If we desire not to force our views on others or to allow a life saving measure when required, let us rethink the idea of the prime directive.

Let us consider the Golden Rule Treat others as we ourselves would be treated. The Golden Rule has served humanity for thousands of years and has been expressed in every culture and every wisdom tradition. For us at least it works.

Star Trek is full of "people". Even the aliens are mostly human, so we can assume that the Golden Rule is as close to a universal principle as we will come up with. In Star Trek we can declare it to be so universal because we create the creatures within and how they will behave.

Let us put a little thought into our "Prime Directive." First, we ditch the vague wording of the Prime Directive as it is. It was a straw argument in The Apple, It was not thought out at all. So we create the Epiphany Trek "Prime Directive" to replace it.
Starfleet General Order Number One (The Prime Directive)
1) Life is sacred. Do what you can to preserve life while following the rest of these principles.
2) First, Do no harm. Examine you actions for potential harm, if acting is significantly worse than not acting, do not act.
3) Second, Allow no harm. This calls upon principle one. Life is more important than anything else. If preserving the life of a world will destroy that world's culture, preserve the life. The culture will rebuild. Sentients have been creating cultures for millions of years, and cultures have been dying out for as long. There is nothing sacred about a culture.
4) There are players (warp capable), and non-players (non-warp capable). Leave the non players alone. Yes, this principle is arbitrary. Like any set of rules, a line has to be drawn between one point and another, between the allowed and the unallowed. We choose to place this line at warp travel. Non-players must be left be to develop their own right ways. They do not need to have them delivered on duralloy tablets from the stars. Principles 1 and 3 can over ride this, but remember principle 2.
5) Our way is not the universal way. Don't shove it down anyone throat. This applies even to players. If someone asks us to let them be, and lets us be also, we will follow their wishes. Some sentients might need the protection and comfort of a totalitarian state. Others might thrive only under total anarchy. Do not judge others by our standard of decency, but by whether the culture is working for them. Someone out there may invent a superior social system we all might find better. They will not however if we give them ours.
6) Free will is paramount. If any Individual feels that their native culture is not working for them they may ask Starfleet for asylum, and they should be granted same. Don't be stupid. Those persons clearly criminal by both the standards of their own culture and the standards of ours cannot expect our protection. Any creature enslaved or oppressed can and should expect our help, even unto risk to ourselves.
7) These rules are suspended for those that make war on us. We will not make war on anyone that does not attack us first. If attacked we will seek peaceful resolution, but not beyond the point of reason. Then we will throw our full combined might against those that make war on us. Once the fighting is over we will seek reasons and resolutions.

I believe that this usage better covers the intent of the idea than the vague wording found in other sources. Far from being a straw man that various Captains have to justify breaking for this reason or that, let us create a Prime Directive that is usable and positive in its scope.

-- Garry Stahl, June 2003
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.
"I saw it done on Voyager" is no excuse for anything, even breathing.

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