Klingon B'rel class BoP help

WiP, finished models and general 1/1400 chit chat.
PopeTerry
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Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by PopeTerry » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:12 pm

Hello all, I have been slowly working through the "1:350" B'rel class Bird of Prey and have decided I want to get a 1:1400 scale version so it'll be in scale with my Ent C,D and E when I get round to doing them. I've done a bit of research and have seen that the 1:2500 model on Federation models is actually a similar size to a 1:1400. Have also seen that the BoP in the adversary set and the BoP in the new 1:1000 Oberth and BoP set are similar sizes too.

I was just seeing if anyone on here would know which is actually closer to being 1:1400. Thanks in advance for any help guys.

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novahobbies
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by novahobbies » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:29 am

Ahh buddy your timing is perfect! I'm building two of these Federation Models B'rels now. Here's a comparison shot of the body compared to the old Ertl BOP from the adversary set:
bopcompare.jpg
And here are ALL the parts that go into just two of these little kits! There are a surprising number of parts....
bopparts.jpg
The BOP in the new Grissom/BOP set is truly 1/1000 and definitely bigger. It's also a beautiful model, but definitely not 1/1400 in any sense of the word.

kobayashimaru
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by kobayashimaru » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:46 am

An excellent question.
Fleetyard has scale charts,
as do ExAstrisScientia and Memory Beta (the more exhaustive discussion is at Memory Beta).
The upshot is that there is a fair bit of 'magic scale syndrome' for the KBoP
even the larger variant.

The "1:2500" Federation Models is fairly close to a 1:1400, depending on how you resolve magic scale syndrome for the KBOP.

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novahobbies
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by novahobbies » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:42 am

kobayashimaru wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:46 am
An excellent question.
Fleetyard has scale charts,
as do ExAstrisScientia and Memory Beta (the more exhaustive discussion is at Memory Beta).
The upshot is that there is a fair bit of 'magic scale syndrome' for the KBoP
even the larger variant.

The "1:2500" Federation Models is fairly close to a 1:1400, depending on how you resolve magic scale syndrome for the KBOP.
I don't usually use Memory Beta for much, as a good bit of it is off-canon, but for the BOP I agree that the K'vort version is extremely.....flexible.....regarding size. As for the B'rel, now, that's a different story. I know it got scaled around a LOT during the shows, but it was always meant to be 360 feet long, or 110m depending on your preference, and for probably 80% of the time it's very close to that 110m mark. I've always run under that assumption for this class.

at the end of the day, I just remember that "it's only a model" as the good knight said, and I urge people to go with whatever looks best on their shelves. :D

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novahobbies
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by novahobbies » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:13 am

Here is a comparison of the Federation Models 1/2500 scale ship, the Adversary set ship, and the ship from the new 1/1000 scale set. Also you can see the gun from the big 1/350 scale kit in the background of the first image.
20190427_235130-01.jpeg
20190427_235228-01.jpeg
And check out this detail
20190427_235907-01.jpeg

Markus
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by Markus » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:36 pm

Great looking models, novahobbies! I've also been on a Klingon kick for the past few months. I had gotten the 1:1000 Grissom/BoP set late last year, which inspired me to finally get out and build the resin KBoPs I've had stashed away.

The Federation Models "1:2500" Bird of Prey does measure out to 110m long in 1:1400 scale, so it is spot on as a TMP era Bird of Prey. The Ertl TNG adversary set's BoP scales to somewhere around 115m long but it has very odd proportions, the command pod is too small and the upper half of the drive hull is way too tall (in order to house the working wing hinges), and the wings are too big in both chord and span. I suppose both models could also be used as stand-ins for 1:2500 scale K'vorts (they'd scale to right around 200m in length).

The new Polar Lights BoP from the Grissom set is spot on at 1:1000 scale, measuring 110m. In 1:1400 scale, it would be 154m, which is roughly the filming size of TNG/DS9 era Birds of Prey like IKS Pagh and IKS Rotarran (also almost the same length as the L42 Great Bird from the old FASA games). Could this be a more reasonably sized K'vort?

The Federation Models 1:1000 scale resin BoP also measures to 110m in length in its intended scale, but its proportions are different compared to Polar Lights. The command pod is larger, the drive section is smaller, and the wingspan is larger. However, the wing edge detail is much better.

Since two of my favorite activities are retconning and kitbashing, here's what I did for my own personal fleet in 1:1400 scale:

B'rel (at 110m long) - factory stock Federation Models "1:2500" KBoP.

IKS Rotarran (K'vort? at 154m long) - Polar Lights 1:1K BoP hull with Federation Models 1:1K wings, best of both detailwise.

FASA L42 (at 158m long) - non-canon trashbash using leftovers from Rotarran build: PL wings with FM hull. Since FASA called the L42 a frigate, maybe this is a lighter and faster variant of the K'vort cruiser.

HMS Bounty (at 105m long) - Federation Models "1:2500" KBoP drive section and wings + Ertl adversary set BoP's command pod. It could be an early production B'rel with a smaller command pod to explain what we saw in the post water landing scene in ST:IV. I built mine with landing gear extended, and the tiny head makes it easier to balance.

Lursa and B'Etor's D12 (at 122m long) - used leftovers from HMS Bounty: Ertl wings and hull with Federation Models command pod. This combination makes a pretty well proportioned model, and looks like cruiser armament and power systems stuffed into a scout hull (which may explain the D12's defective plasma coils).

I'll post pictures and more detailed descriptions in a new thread, so I'm not hogging any more of this one!

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novahobbies
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by novahobbies » Wed May 01, 2019 2:45 pm

Good set of retconning there, I like it!

I have a pair of Ertl Adversary birds, one that I built years ago, and another I started accurizing many years ago. Since my new resin "1/2500" FedModels birds will take the place of the wings-down 110m birds, I'm going to take my accurized Adversary set bird and mod it into a mini landed diorama, and I'd like to heavily modify the oldest one into a klingon-ish Winged defender, by reversing the wings so they're swept back, moving the guns off the wingtips and relocating them under the hull, and adding scratchbuilt warp engines to the wingtips.

Meanwhile, I'm going with the MUCH larger idea of the K'vort, at 320m.....which is perfect for my Warp Models resin kit in 1/1400 scale. :D Hey, at least I'm not trying to say it's 600m like it shows in some episodes!

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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by Markus » Thu May 02, 2019 3:12 pm

Thanks! I hadn't seen the Warp Models resin BoP until seeing your photos, and yes I completely agree, that is perfect as a 1/1400 scale K'vort! Now I'll have to figure out what to call the 154m birds. B'rel Plus? B'rel Max?

I like your idea of building a Winged Defender out of an adversary BoP, and I look forward to seeing the result. I'm glad we have this wide variety of Bird of Prey models available, each with subtle differences that could be used to represent different classes, subclasses, or production batches, given how long that overall shape has been around.

As for some retcon for why that overall shape has been in use for so long and scaled for different purposes, here's something I wrote up a little while ago.

Cloak envelopes:

The Bird of Prey is the first known Klingon ship design to have cloaking capability. In order to use just enough energy to cloak the entire ship without wasting energy cloaking empty space, it’s possible cloaking devices have to be fine tuned so the cloak envelope follows the exact shape and volume of the ship it’s designed for. As power is added, the cloak field’s shape remains constant, and grows proportionally to encompass a larger volume. We’ve seen cloaking devices installed in the wrong kinds of ships (Enterprise and Defiant) and still work, but doing so would be more energy intensive and less effective than optimal, as you’d need to use enough power to grow the cloaking field to fit the entirety of your new ship into the wrong shape.

It could be that the Romulans, who have much more expertise in the field, did all the fine tuning work for the Bird of Prey (and maybe the D7 *) designs for the Klingons. After their technology transfer agreement expired, the Klingons were left with just those two optimized cloak envelope shapes to work with, and found it easier to design new ships to fit within these existing cloak envelopes than to try to create and refine new cloak envelope shapes for other ship designs.

Therefore, the B’rel and K’vort were built as cloakable frigates and cruisers in the shape of scaled up Birds of Prey to make use of the already optimized cloak envelope, buying some time for Klingon engineers to learn and hone their cloak envelope tuning skills. Eventually, they were able to create their own efficient and effective cloak envelopes for new ships like the Vor’cha and Negh’Var, and were no longer confined to the Bird of Prey shape.

(* I don’t remember if TNG/DS9 era K’tingas could cloak. If so, they might just be reusing the cloak envelopes tuned for tech transfer era Romulan D7/Stormbirds. This is assuming TNG/DS9 K'tingas are scaled up, as per the DS9 tech manual. Original size K'tingas can just use D7 cloak envelopes, of course.)

Retcon for the 600m Bird of Prey:

Perspective/Parallax cloaking in holographic embiggening mode. :) Just a regular old K'vort with a modified cloaking device to make it look bigger, rather than invisible.

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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by Markus » Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm

Back to the original question of which models make good 1/1400 scale Birds of Prey, here's a quick and dirty photo of my collection to give a rough idea of how they look in comparison with other 1/1400 scale Klingon ships. From left to right, they are:

Fed Models 1/1000 BoP with Polar Lights wings, as a 1/1400 FASA L42 class frigate (with the silver and olive paint scheme as seen in the FASA miniatures catalog from the 1980s!)

Polar Lights 1/1000 BoP with Fed Models wings, as 1/1400 IKS Rotarran (TNG/DS9 era B'rel XL).

Alliance Models 1/1400 D7 as IKV Devisor (don't be fooled by the faux'tinga paint job, it's a factory stock D7).

Ertl adversary BoP, partially accurized, with FM 1/2500 head/command pod, as a 1/1400 D12.

Starcraft 1/1400 D5, factory stock, as IKV Mirror.

Fed Models 1/2500 BoP with Ertl head, as 1/1400 HMS Bounty in landing configuration.

Fed Models 1/2500 BoP, factory stock, as 1/1400 B'rel Classic in flight configuration.

Starcraft 1/1400 D4, factory stock, as IKV Fencer.

Some random unknown alien ship, photobombing my shot. :)
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novahobbies
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Re: Klingon B'rel class BoP help

Post by novahobbies » Fri May 03, 2019 5:22 pm

Markus wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm
Back to the original question of which models make good 1/1400 scale Birds of Prey, here's a quick and dirty photo of my collection to give a rough idea of how they look in comparison with other 1/1400 scale Klingon ships. From left to right, they are:

Fed Models 1/1000 BoP with Polar Lights wings, as a 1/1400 FASA L42 class frigate (with the silver and olive paint scheme as seen in the FASA miniatures catalog from the 1980s!)

Polar Lights 1/1000 BoP with Fed Models wings, as 1/1400 IKS Rotarran (TNG/DS9 era B'rel XL).

Alliance Models 1/1400 D7 as IKV Devisor (don't be fooled by the faux'tinga paint job, it's a factory stock D7).

Ertl adversary BoP, partially accurized, with FM 1/2500 head/command pod, as a 1/1400 D12.

Starcraft 1/1400 D5, factory stock, as IKV Mirror.

Fed Models 1/2500 BoP with Ertl head, as 1/1400 HMS Bounty in landing configuration.

Fed Models 1/2500 BoP, factory stock, as 1/1400 B'rel Classic in flight configuration.

Starcraft 1/1400 D4, factory stock, as IKV Fencer.

Some random unknown alien ship, photobombing my shot. :)
That's a great arrangement there! If I may ask, do you remember what you used for the base paint on the D-5? It looks spot on!

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