NEVER turn your back on a Breen (final pics p 6)

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Moongrim
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Re: Gorn Cruiser would be my first choice

Post by Moongrim » Thu May 22, 2014 4:30 pm

Fascinating.
There are Times, Sir, when men of good Conscience cannot blindly follow orders. You acknowledge their sentience, but ignore their personal liberties and freedoms. Order a man to hand over his child to the state? Not while I"m captain.
- J.L.Picard.

Kratok
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Re: Gorn Cruiser would be my first choice

Post by Kratok » Thu May 22, 2014 10:18 pm

Zookman,
Way, WAY Above and Beyond with the pics and all the measurements. Thank you so much! That will be a huge help.

Moongrim,
Love the Venator, and have saved the picture. The ship I am doing is from the TOS era in the SFB universe, but I can easily see the image you linked as something from TLY or TNG. We'll see how this build goes - I may tackle the Venator at a later date. But with a different paint scheme ;)

JKB-1,
They do fit well together. Nice catch!

Will need a little time to put together some drawings, and decide what scale I want to do. Then, pull together starting supplies for some additional pics. Not real sure about a backstory, either - I am just building something a little different for my fleet. I can probably come up with something as the thread progresses, however.

All, thanks again for helping me get off the ground. Nice to be part of such a friendly community of like-minded hobbyists.

To be continued...

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Re: Gorn Cruiser would be my first choice

Post by Kratok » Mon May 26, 2014 4:00 am

I have to admit.
The more I delve into this, the more I find myself struggling with the Gorn build idea.

I really do love the SFB Gorn ships. Thanks to jkb-1's earlier link, I found the gaming miniatures are still available through Amarillo Design Bureau. So, despite Zookman's generous effort of scaling out the dreadnought for me, I ordered the Gorn Fleet Pack. Now I COULD build any of the ships in the Gorn fleet, if I wanted to.

But browsing through the catalog, I remember how little I liked most of the other ships in the SFB series. The Kzinti, Hydrans, and Lyrans are OK, but I am not sure they are really major players in Trek anywhere other than the SFB universe. The Federation, Romulan, and Klingon ships are unfortunately not terribly inspired. Particularly if you stack them up against some of the later FASA offerings. The Gorn, they are the exception. The cruiser has the nicest lines, but none of the Gorn ships are bad. The warp nacelles strike me as a little too sleek for the Gorn, but I can overlook that. But are the ships overall alien enough for Gorn? Are they TOO similar to the Federation saucer and secondary hull design? How did the design philosophy shift so dramatically between TOS SFB ships and what we see in STO? Do I really want to build just one race from this universe?

So I get back to looking at the FASA ships. I can see a design evolution from there to STO. But the lines just don't speak to me the way the SFB designs do....

Looking again at the remastered TOS Arena design. It has that "alien" factor, for sure. However, it looks more like a shuttlecraft than a cruiser to me. But, like it or not, it IS canon. So I start looking at JKB-1's image again, and I see similarities with the remastered ship. Particularly in the quad nacelles. I like the rotated saucer, though it would bug me that the canon cruiser does not incorporate this feature. And, If I scratch this, would anyone other than me see it as Gorn? A lot of the same thoughts ring true with Moongrim's link to the Unusualsuspex Gorn. The artist actually did several takes on similar Gorn ships - but would anyone really recognize them as such?

So I have been toying with the idea of combining some of the design features. Maybe taking the SFB ship and twisting it in the middle, so that the front and rear saucers are perpendicular to each other. Make the rear saucer vertical, and the front horizontal? Add quad nacelles like on the Arena ship? The rear vertical saucer becoming engineering, with a vertical warp core linking the four nacelles? Relocating the impulse engine back into the engineering pod, and the shuttlebays into the wings?



Or, I could switch to another 2500 build like the New Orleans and and Springfield. I still have to do the Cheyenne, Challenger, and Freedom. I know I could finish the ships by the end of the contest. Not so sure about the requisite aztec decals.

I have a few kitbash ideas that I think would be well received, but the donor kits are currently unavailable (Come back, Jasonius - we miss you!). Similarly, I have a number of half-completed kitbashes that I think would do well - they are essentially built, however, and just need painted. That disqualifies them. Most of the rest of the kitbashes in my queue are more advanced projects that are going to take too long to stand a chance of being finished by the end of the contest.

So, I am struggling.
I am hoping that a couple of days at WF will get my creativity flowing, or at least inspire me to make a final determination. Meanwhile, I would really like to hear any comments/thoughts about my dilemma, and the idea of a modified SFB Gorn as outlined above. I find that hearing others' thoughts on issues like this help me to focus and filter out the distractions. So, if you have any thoughts one way or another on my ramblings, I would love to hear them.

Off to ponder my options......

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Re: Gorn Cruiser would be my first choice

Post by jkb-1 » Tue May 27, 2014 11:19 pm

I feel for ya. You can build any ship you want, but would rather have a consistent fleet if you ever get around to it.

There is the 78 year gap between the TOS Star Fleet Battles ships and the ones from TNG, enough for tech change. There's a fan-published design from way back at the Cygnus-X1 site, combining an ovoid forward hull and four warp engines that could be put somewhere in the sequence.

The SFB background for the Gorn has it being three slightly different races from different planets seeded by a Preserver-type. If you want different design styles, you could have the different Gorn planets producing alternates much like Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar before the United Star Fleet. (A unhelpful design from another Star Trek comic. Despite the ready availability of pine cones and bailing wire, I decline to accept this as a model of a ship.)
NOT_Gorn.jpg
Star Trek Unlimited #1
NOT_Gorn.jpg (116.6 KiB) Viewed 1540 times
Your question of a design screaming Gorn reminded me of a DS9 design shown in ST: The Magazine:
DS9Gorn.png
DS9Gorn.png (76.09 KiB) Viewed 1540 times
What "Reptilian arches" means, I don't know. Maybe creating a resemblance to a fossil skull? Something like Vulcan sensor dishes that come to a point on top! :lol:

Kratok
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Re: Kratok's Conundrum

Post by Kratok » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:10 am

jkb,

Pine Cone is the perfect description for those ships. I was looking for "alien" - these might be a little too far over the top!
I do like the arched Gorn TNG design, though I don't know what the purpose of the arches would be.
This is another ship that, although it is supposed to be Cardassian, looks much more "Gorn-y" to me.
cardassian_cruiser.jpg
cardassian_cruiser.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 1525 times
There WERE also a couple of really nice canon 1:1400 Gorn cruisers at Wonderfest, which has me re-evaluating that design.
IMG_7073.JPG
IMG_7073.JPG (42 KiB) Viewed 1525 times
The more I think about it, the more confusing it becomes. With no well-established, consistent representation of what Gorn ships should be, I think I am going so move on to another build candidate.

Next up for consideration would be the Breen.

Jasonius offered a really, REALLY nice Breen Chel Grett cruiser at one point in time. This is not my build, but it shows off the basic model very nicely:
Chel Grett 011.png
It is a delicate little jewel, and REALLY captures the weird assymetry of this ship.

I am contemplating taking a couple of these and building a representation of either the Plesh Brek frigate/destroyer/raider from Star Trek Online:
Plesh Brek 01.png
Or maybe the Gel Chak battleship:
Gel Chak 001.png
They won't be 100% canon representations - to do so would require complete scratchbuilds - but they will be pretty close. I might actually build both, and choose the one I like best for my "official" entry. Attaching the Plesh Brek to a stand has me a little worried. Not much thickness there at 1:2500 scale to insert a stand...

Noodling through the arrangement of parts now. Still a few days before I have to commit, and I have a couple other ideas in reserve if this doesn't work out.

More to come.

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Re: Kratok's Conundrum

Post by Moongrim » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:33 am

Oh my.... :mrgreen:
There are Times, Sir, when men of good Conscience cannot blindly follow orders. You acknowledge their sentience, but ignore their personal liberties and freedoms. Order a man to hand over his child to the state? Not while I"m captain.
- J.L.Picard.

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Re: Kratok's Conundrum

Post by jkb-1 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:19 am

I like the Plesh Brek, asymmetry and a three dimensional design.

While visiting my sister's family this weekend, I saw her daughters have a spool of dental floss in this plastic case:

Image

It's about 5 cm across and less than 2 high.

I don't know if this'll affect your decision, but having this as a start has me a bit excited.


[EDIT] I guess I should make clear that is a part of the Star Fleet Battles Gorn ship. I am more influenced by early artists on game book covers who found it easier to draw the Gorn saucer as a smooth ovoid, but this flatish case looks pretty good as a 3-D object.

Kratok
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Re: Kratok's Conundrum

Post by Kratok » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:30 am

JKB-1,
Yep. Looks like it would be a good starting point.
Why not give it a try?

Kratok
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Re: NEVER turn your back on a Breen

Post by Kratok » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:34 am

OK, the deadline is coming up, so I am going to commit.

Breen it is.

Here, then, are my "Starting Point" pictures. I am going to build both of these concurrently. I am not sure which will wind up being my contest entry. Probably whichever fights me the least.

The easiest of the two is going to be the Gel Chak battleship:
Breen 01.png
This one almost looks like it will fall together. I may add a few of the smaller detail pieces from the cruiser kit just to flesh it out a bit . And I will obviously have to scratchbuild a central pod and deflector housing. But it looks like a pretty straightforward build. Mine will not be quite as wide overall as the concept art, but I like the slightly more compact profile better anyway.

The Plesh Brek will require a bit more effort:
Breen 02.png
I want this ship to be smaller to better fit its stated role as a raider/destroyer. So, I don't want to use the main hull/arm from the cruiser at all. The plan is to use the two pods at the left to form the two overhead structures. They will be connected by scratchbuilt struts to a scratchbuilt central command pod. The lower arm will be manufactured from the cruiser arch. I will utilize the portion in the red rectangle, and the rest will go to the Kitbash Bin. The arm will be cut along the green line, and lengthened with an custom insert. I will add a small scoop or greeblie of some kind where the yellow box is located. That should give me enough "meat" to safely drill for a stand.

I think the overhead arms may be of a very, VERY slightly different size on the STO model, but am not sure that I will mess with that. I can already see one possible modification to accomplish that conversion if i decide to pursue it.....I guess I will just see if the piece speaks to me about possible modifications when I get to that point.

I am hoping that by contest end some panel decals may be available for this ship. If not, I will break out my magnifying loop and do what I can with paint.

Expect more photos as work and hobby time permit.

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Re: NEVER turn your back on a Breen

Post by el gato » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:19 pm

Go Kratok! We hardly ever see Breen (seriously, come back Jasonius!*). And your models are always :thumbsup: so I'm looking forward to what you do with these (or one of the "this") designs.

* I heard he's reviving his projects, so hopefully I'll get a copy of his Breen ship
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