STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:15 am

patrickivan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 pm
Angry sub group of liberals?

And no one can argue that people of colour, people of different sexual orientation, people of divergent sex, first nations peoples, and women, have not been utterly screwed in North American culture. I can't understand how a white male is threatened by having anyone else have the same advantages and parity in life. And that life means to pretty much just be able to get a job, go to stores and buy a !!!!!!!! cake, get married, adopt a child, without having someone be so bigoted and threatened just because that person isn't a white strait male.

There is no way that can be argued against. And to let "those" people, who are just people, live those lives, means that we have to make conscious choices in life. Because if popular media and government doesn't prod us along, gay people will keep getting beaten up for being nothing more than gay or not be "allowed" to get married, or buy the cake from a !!!!!!!! bigot (I don't care what you're personal religious beliefs are- no one should deny someone anything if it doesn't hurt anyone). Women will keep playing second fiddle to men. Black people will keep getting shot for being black. First Nation's people will keep being treated like complete garbage because we had the gall to move into to their country.

Jesus, man, I'm white. I'm no liberal. I'm completely bi-partisan. I think for myself. I used to be that bigoted kid who made fun of gays, black people, and natives. But I learned... I evolved into something far better. And our society and world would be a hell of a lot better if it weren't for fear of change and equality.

And like I said, we need those pushes in life. Star Trek was a huge influence on my young stupid bigoted change to something better. What a stupid kid I was. And that's all I see in people who are afraid now. They're just dumb kids. And it's partly not their fault. People are products of their environments.

But it's change and evolve or die out.

I do know one thing. If there was ever a war based on these prejudices, I know what side I'm on. The right side. The side that abhors subjugation. The side that promotes equality for all. Justice for all. The kind that doesn't hate because someone is different.
Yes, very angry liberals clustered in academia, the media and the tech sector. As for your sloganeering, which you insist cannot be argued, I must disagree. You seem to believe that inequality of any kind can only be caused by injustice. That simply isn't so. Were we to actually examine how people stack up in various jobs, the simplistic narrative of oppressed women would disintegrate. There are a number of professions dominated by women, and they're hardly all low wage jobs.

https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender ... 20_txt.htm

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Asians are a measly 6% of the US population, yet they account for 22.6% of US physicians which are, last I checked, pretty well compensated.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /PST045217

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/291060/#demographics

Why are Asians so overrepresented? Is there some sort of institutional discrimination in their favor? Or do they just benefit from better family structure and an emphasis on hard work?

For any occupation where women are the majority, is there some hidden preference at work?

Or maybe, just maybe, do people's choices and preferences factor in here? For all their incessant talk of diversity, liberals miss the most obvious varieties: diversity of interest, talent and ability. Saying that everyone should be treated equally in a public square is fine, but they then transition to the idea that everyone is equal when they're not. No one should be barred from attending a university or applying for a job on the basis of race or gender. They should absolutely be barred on the basis of qualification. And when the job calls for a particular skillset that one group has a general advantage in, it simply means the other group has to put in more work. That's not "unfair" or "bigoted," that's life.

I suppose you can explain all of that away by how women are "socialized," but all that does is vitiate their agency and self-determination.

I am perpetually amazed by the similarities between the so-called Alt-Right and Social Justice Warriors when it comes to psychology. They both see concentrations of wealth and power in groups that are not themselves and automatically assume they must somehow have been oppressed. In the year 2018, I regard the ideas of patriarchy and white supremacy to be as illusory as ZOG.

Speaking of Jews, might their success have something to do with the fact that they so value education? After suffering one of the most heinous crimes in all history they find a way to persevere? Anti-Semitism hasn't exactly gone away. It's almost as if wallowing in victimhood is less conducive to success than bettering yourself.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/12/13/jewi ... ttainment/

For another example of reality's refusal to obey the narrative, take a gander at this Bureau of Justice Statistics study.

Abstract:
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fsd0512_sum.pdf

and full:
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fsd0512.pdf

NB: "As a whole, females and white males received less severe
sentences than black males over the 8-year study period.
Black females were found to not be disadvantaged compared
to white females. "

So being female actually confers more advantages in a court of law than being white. And here I thought women were oppressed.
patrickivan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 pm
parity in life
And there it is, the single most dangerous idea human beings have ever had. Equality is a laudable goal provided it accounts for differences in ability and interest. Parity and/or equity is evil, because it invariably ignores differences in ability and interest and boils the whole world down to simply oppressors and oppressed, which in turn leads to ever increasing government efforts to "reform" supposed inequalities, destroying freedom and advancing totalitarianism. It also produces a millenarian mindset that promises its followers utopia just as soon as the Bad Guys have been disposed of, perhaps in an uprising or revolution of some sort.

You will never achieve parity so long as people are free to pursue what interests them to the best of their (varying levels of) ability. Where work remains to be done in tackling forms of inequality that are in the government's purview, by all means have at it. Blacks still receive harsher sentences than whites, according to the data I posted. If you want to work on that, be my guest. I'll help if I can, but don't lump all these groups under the banner of Disadvantaged. You just did exactly what I described in my previous post.

And lastly, it might behoove you to read the SCOTUS decision on the Masterpiece Cake Shop. The decision was 7-2, by the way. Hardly close.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 1_j4el.pdf

"Indeed, while the instant enforcement
proceedings were pending, the State Civil Rights Division
concluded in at least three cases that a baker acted lawfully in declining
to create cakes with decorations that demeaned gay persons or
gay marriages. Phillips too was entitled to a neutral and respectful
consideration of his claims in all the circumstances of the case.
Pp. 9–12.
(b) That consideration was compromised, however, by the Commission’s
treatment of Phillips’ case, which showed elements of a clear
and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating
his objection. As the record shows, some of the commissioners
at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that
religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere
or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and
characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of
his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust.
No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they
mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs
filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality
of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case."

Yep. The Colorado Civil Right Commission displayed such blatant hostility to the Christian plaintiff that the Court sided with him. Which side is the bigot again? And don't feed me that crap about "intolerance of intolerance." That attitude lost them the case.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by kobayashimaru » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:31 am

Folks,
far from discouraging a discourse/dialogue on that tangent,
I believe that the subject merits a thread of its own.
As, ostensibly, it verges upon 'thread hijacking/derailment' to the original topic of post 1 of this thread
which I remind folks was
"SW8 TLJ", a fictional sci-fi movie. :geek:

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:38 am

You know what, I'll grant your parity argument one concession. The right of people to a product or service doesn't imply an obligation on the part of the government to provide it to them free of charge. The government will do that in certain instances, but the goods or services offered are generally lower quality e.g. Section 8 housing. But there is one place I will grant the idea of parity: representation in a court of law. The idea of equal justice cannot be sustained if the rich can keep top-flight law firms on retainer and the poor get stuck with public defenders. You want to argue specifically for a nationwide pro bono requirement? Go right ahead.

Edit: I notice Kobayashi posted right before me. He's quite right of course.

I didn't like The Last Jedi, but that's not really related to Rose.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by RogueWolf » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:03 pm

Long story short, TLJ just wasn't good enough to further interest in the SW franchise. I had high hopes for Solo, but after seeing TLJ, I waited. Turns out I saved myself 15 bucks, horrible reviews, lots of bad press.

I want a good story, this can be done without having to re-invent the wheel every film. I still haven't seen Solo and I refuse to pay to see it.

IMHO, the best stories to come out of the SW verse, aside from Rogue One, have been the Clone Wars and Rebels.
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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by ProfArturo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:24 pm

Solo was good. Sure it wasn't Ep I-VI or Rogue One good, but it told an original story and contributed some new lore to the mythology, such as seeing the Kessel Run.

I just wish it hasn't tried so hard to set up sequels which now won't happen.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:42 pm

WarpNein wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:15 am
patrickivan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 pm
Angry sub group of liberals?

And no one can argue that people of colour, people of different sexual orientation, people of divergent sex, first nations peoples, and women, have not been utterly screwed in North American culture. I can't understand how a white male is threatened by having anyone else have the same advantages and parity in life. And that life means to pretty much just be able to get a job, go to stores and buy a !!!!!!!! cake, get married, adopt a child, without having someone be so bigoted and threatened just because that person isn't a white strait male.

There is no way that can be argued against. And to let "those" people, who are just people, live those lives, means that we have to make conscious choices in life. Because if popular media and government doesn't prod us along, gay people will keep getting beaten up for being nothing more than gay or not be "allowed" to get married, or buy the cake from a !!!!!!!! bigot (I don't care what you're personal religious beliefs are- no one should deny someone anything if it doesn't hurt anyone). Women will keep playing second fiddle to men. Black people will keep getting shot for being black. First Nation's people will keep being treated like complete garbage because we had the gall to move into to their country.

Jesus, man, I'm white. I'm no liberal. I'm completely bi-partisan. I think for myself. I used to be that bigoted kid who made fun of gays, black people, and natives. But I learned... I evolved into something far better. And our society and world would be a hell of a lot better if it weren't for fear of change and equality.

And like I said, we need those pushes in life. Star Trek was a huge influence on my young stupid bigoted change to something better. What a stupid kid I was. And that's all I see in people who are afraid now. They're just dumb kids. And it's partly not their fault. People are products of their environments.

But it's change and evolve or die out.

I do know one thing. If there was ever a war based on these prejudices, I know what side I'm on. The right side. The side that abhors subjugation. The side that promotes equality for all. Justice for all. The kind that doesn't hate because someone is different.
Yes, very angry liberals clustered in academia, the media and the tech sector. As for your sloganeering, which you insist cannot be argued, I must disagree. You seem to believe that inequality of any kind can only be caused by injustice. That simply isn't so. Were we to actually examine how people stack up in various jobs, the simplistic narrative of oppressed women would disintegrate. There are a number of professions dominated by women, and they're hardly all low wage jobs.

https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender ... 20_txt.htm

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Asians are a measly 6% of the US population, yet they account for 22.6% of US physicians which are, last I checked, pretty well compensated.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /PST045217

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/291060/#demographics

Why are Asians so overrepresented? Is there some sort of institutional discrimination in their favor? Or do they just benefit from better family structure and an emphasis on hard work?

For any occupation where women are the majority, is there some hidden preference at work?

Or maybe, just maybe, do people's choices and preferences factor in here? For all their incessant talk of diversity, liberals miss the most obvious varieties: diversity of interest, talent and ability. Saying that everyone should be treated equally in a public square is fine, but they then transition to the idea that everyone is equal when they're not. No one should be barred from attending a university or applying for a job on the basis of race or gender. They should absolutely be barred on the basis of qualification. And when the job calls for a particular skillset that one group has a general advantage in, it simply means the other group has to put in more work. That's not "unfair" or "bigoted," that's life.

I suppose you can explain all of that away by how women are "socialized," but all that does is vitiate their agency and self-determination.

I am perpetually amazed by the similarities between the so-called Alt-Right and Social Justice Warriors when it comes to psychology. They both see concentrations of wealth and power in groups that are not themselves and automatically assume they must somehow have been oppressed. In the year 2018, I regard the ideas of patriarchy and white supremacy to be as illusory as ZOG.

Speaking of Jews, might their success have something to do with the fact that they so value education? After suffering one of the most heinous crimes in all history they find a way to persevere? Anti-Semitism hasn't exactly gone away. It's almost as if wallowing in victimhood is less conducive to success than bettering yourself.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/12/13/jewi ... ttainment/

For another example of reality's refusal to obey the narrative, take a gander at this Bureau of Justice Statistics study.

Abstract:
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fsd0512_sum.pdf

and full:
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fsd0512.pdf

NB: "As a whole, females and white males received less severe
sentences than black males over the 8-year study period.
Black females were found to not be disadvantaged compared
to white females. "

So being female actually confers more advantages in a court of law than being white. And here I thought women were oppressed.
patrickivan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 pm
parity in life
And there it is, the single most dangerous idea human beings have ever had. Equality is a laudable goal provided it accounts for differences in ability and interest. Parity and/or equity is evil, because it invariably ignores differences in ability and interest and boils the whole world down to simply oppressors and oppressed, which in turn leads to ever increasing government efforts to "reform" supposed inequalities, destroying freedom and advancing totalitarianism. It also produces a millenarian mindset that promises its followers utopia just as soon as the Bad Guys have been disposed of, perhaps in an uprising or revolution of some sort.

You will never achieve parity so long as people are free to pursue what interests them to the best of their (varying levels of) ability. Where work remains to be done in tackling forms of inequality that are in the government's purview, by all means have at it. Blacks still receive harsher sentences than whites, according to the data I posted. If you want to work on that, be my guest. I'll help if I can, but don't lump all these groups under the banner of Disadvantaged. You just did exactly what I described in my previous post.

And lastly, it might behoove you to read the SCOTUS decision on the Masterpiece Cake Shop. The decision was 7-2, by the way. Hardly close.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 1_j4el.pdf

"Indeed, while the instant enforcement
proceedings were pending, the State Civil Rights Division
concluded in at least three cases that a baker acted lawfully in declining
to create cakes with decorations that demeaned gay persons or
gay marriages. Phillips too was entitled to a neutral and respectful
consideration of his claims in all the circumstances of the case.
Pp. 9–12.
(b) That consideration was compromised, however, by the Commission’s
treatment of Phillips’ case, which showed elements of a clear
and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating
his objection. As the record shows, some of the commissioners
at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that
religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere
or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and
characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of
his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust.
No commissioners objected to the comments. Nor were they
mentioned in the later state-court ruling or disavowed in the briefs
filed here. The comments thus cast doubt on the fairness and impartiality
of the Commission’s adjudication of Phillips’ case."

Yep. The Colorado Civil Right Commission displayed such blatant hostility to the Christian plaintiff that the Court sided with him. Which side is the bigot again? And don't feed me that crap about "intolerance of intolerance." That attitude lost them the case.
Well I suppose you're just right. We've all been duped into believing that all groups in NA have been pretty much kept under the thumbs of white male dominated society. We should all just sit back and fight for our rights as white males to? Wait, to what? What is it are we fighting for here? As a white male, I should be afraid of what again? Being believed by police that I was raped? Fight against being shot in my own home for being black in my own home? Having longer sentences than most any other racial groups? Fight against being beaten up for being straight white? Fight against controlling the majority of wealth in NA?

Good god man, you're have nothing to fear. The very argument against helping promote equality does nothing but promote inequality. P


And my links are more fun than yours : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogb2ctOfV4 And really, going back to your very first stat link, you CAN become a dental hygienist if you want, but society has socially engineered it to become a female job. Like the disproportion in male dominated construction. And this is really part of my point.

Don't be afraid. You and your grandkids will be okay. And if they turn out gay in a mixed "race" marriage (MARRIAGE), they will be fine as long as white male bigots don't get in the way.

And yes, other cultures can be bigots in NA. But the issue is that the white male culture is far louder, and far more oppressive historically. In America and Canada.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:45 pm

RogueWolf wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:03 pm
Long story short, TLJ just wasn't good enough to further interest in the SW franchise. I had high hopes for Solo, but after seeing TLJ, I waited. Turns out I saved myself 15 bucks, horrible reviews, lots of bad press.

I want a good story, this can be done without having to re-invent the wheel every film. I still haven't seen Solo and I refuse to pay to see it.

IMHO, the best stories to come out of the SW verse, aside from Rogue One, have been the Clone Wars and Rebels.
It wasn't that bad. There were some cringe worthy scenes. Silliness. And honestly, the casting for Solo wasn't the best in the world.

!!!!!!!!, doesn't sound like I'm defending it, does it?

It was okay. Not how I'd have done it, but not horrible.

At least it didn't have worthless Tico Rose and Canto Bight scenes in it. Completely different style of Star Wars movie.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:30 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:42 pm
Well I suppose you're just right. We've all been duped into believing that all groups in NA have been pretty much kept under the thumbs of white male dominated society. We should all just sit back and fight for our rights as white males to? Wait, to what? What is it are we fighting for here? As a white male, I should be afraid of what again? Being believed by police that I was raped? Fight against being shot in my own home for being black in my own home? Having longer sentences than most any other racial groups? Fight against being beaten up for being straight white? Fight against controlling the majority of wealth in NA?
You certainly have been, although it's not hard to see why. You are either unwilling or unable to think past the simplistic straw men and regurgitated platitudes you keep responding with.

I'm younger than you are, by the way, and I don't have grandkids. What I do have, and this will probably break your mind, is a direct paternal lineage to wealthy Cherokee slave owners. What's that you say? An oppressed minority oppressing another oppressed minority? They were, of course, removed from their land by the Indian Removal Act. Boy, I should hate Andrew Jackson. Now let's put your commitment to Change to the test. I could dig through Andrew Jackson's writings on the Indian Removal Act and find numerous appeals to Progress and the growth of the nation. So let me put it to you: would you be arguing the same "evolve or die" rhetoric to the Indians in 1830?

As for Solo, haven't seen it. TLJ killed my interest in the rest of Disney's Star Wars.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:20 pm

I'm really not sure what it is you're arguing at this point. You've completely lost me on this.

My age (whatever that may be) is no more relevant than yours. As is your lineage.

I think you miss the point completely on how white privilege in North America has marginalized other groups. And how Male privilege has done the same to women.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:12 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:20 pm
I'm really not sure what it is you're arguing at this point. You've completely lost me on this.

My age (whatever that may be) is no more relevant than yours. As is your lineage.

I think you miss the point completely on how white privilege in North America has marginalized other groups. And how Male privilege has done the same to women.
You simply keep returning to your original thesis with nary a thought given to any contradictory evidence, or the convenient invocation of Privilege to tidy said evidence away. It's like arguing with a Creationist.

Male privilege does not exist. And white privilege certainly hasn't prevented Asians and Jews from excelling in technical fields.

And you gave you age as "40s" in a previous post. You seem convinced I was some sort of granpda.

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