STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by SKO » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:49 pm

instead of arguing about the Last Jedi on the internet most doctors recommend something more useful or productive or healthy, like huffing paint or guzzling turpentine or hitting yourself in the face with a hammer.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by ProfArturo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:55 pm

I hated TFA for being utterly derivative, and whilst I liked that TLJ tried to be different and subvert expectations, I really didn't like what they did do.

The whole theme of the film was letting go of the past, letting go of heroes - and the final scene was a boy taking inspiration from an old hero.

A total mess.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:25 pm

SKO wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:49 pm
instead of arguing about the Last Jedi on the internet most doctors recommend something more useful or productive or healthy, like huffing paint or guzzling turpentine or hitting yourself in the face with a hammer.
It's just a discussion with a mixed bag of rants.

Kind of the entire point of these social groups. Especially Off topic threads like this.

We look for people to support our views. To present an argument. To rant about something. Maybe see another person's point of view and even may change our views.

Otherwise, why would anyone talk to anyone about anything?
Last edited by patrickivan on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:31 pm

ProfArturo wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:55 pm
I hated TFA for being utterly derivative, and whilst I liked that TLJ tried to be different and subvert expectations, I really didn't like what they did do.

The whole theme of the film was letting go of the past, letting go of heroes - and the final scene was a boy taking inspiration from an old hero.

A total mess.
Derivative of the original 3 movies? If so, I agree... But it was overall a fun movie. My understanding is that a lot of younger culture now involves media that makes very blatant direct references to current and past things. Heavily. I could be wrong, I don't follow much anymore.

With TLJ, who was the boy taking inspiration from? I'm not following you there.

I'll never get why so many people felt that the only way forward for the new heroes, was to literally leave behind or kill of the old. That there can't be a passing of the torch that let's the old see that things are in good hands. That the new have a respect for the old and relish that they're now keeping them safe. But man, Disney really wants to kill everyone off.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:38 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:31 pm
I'll never get why so many people felt that the only way forward for the new heroes, was to literally leave behind or kill of the old. That there can't be a passing of the torch that let's the old see that things are in good hands. That the new have a respect for the old and relish that they're now keeping them safe. But man, Disney really wants to kill everyone off.
It strikes me as a sort of cultural iconoclasm to be honest, predicated on a desire not for inclusion but for usurpation. It's not enough to pass the torch, the torch has to be snatched away and the previous runner dishonored.

And I certainly feel a threat for being white and male these days, but it's more for what a certain angry subgroup of liberals want to happen than what I think actually will. Liberalism depends on a fractious minority coalition of gays, blacks, Latinos and other groups united under the banner of Disadvantaged and in opposition to the supposedly dominant white straight male patriarchy. Problem is history and reality are rather more complex than that simplistic narrative. The minority coalition is riven with fractures between white feminists and "POC" feminists, feminists and trans activists (see: TERFs) white gays and black gays, etc. I fear liberalism for what it intends: using the minority coalition to exact race- and gender-based revenge. That's why you see such virulent racism and sexism directed at minority and female conservatives by supposedly tolerant liberals, with terms like coon, Uncle Tom, house n****r, "internalized misogyny" (the very accusation of which is itself misogynist) etc, because they're not part of the coalition. But I don't think it will ever reach that point, because their coalition will disintegrate from it's own internecine divisions because minorities are not as monolithic as liberals think they are.

I remember ten years ago when I was a liberal and being amazed that black people generally weren't on board with gay rights. "It's just like their civil rights struggle, what's wrong with them" I would say. My early 20s college-student liberal psychology considered minority groups like chess pieces to be positioned against my then political opponents.

The Canto Bight arc feels like an indulgence of anti-wealthy sentiment because we're not really given a reason to hate the wealthy gamblers beyond their wealth. It's established they're not really accomplices of the First Order as they sell weapons to both sides. I suppose they have child slaves, but Rose wastes no time doing nothing whatsoever about that. There isn't enough time spent on world building in the film. We're just thrust into scenes and expected to react based on preconceptions. "These people are wealthy and partying it up while the First Order tightens the noose. Hate them!". That's not enough motivation for me, and thus their comeuppance feels undeserved.

I think the scene would work much better as a tense James Bond style infiltration scene rather than an action set piece. We already have a ticking clock element from the cruiser chase that's happening simultaneously. It should have been about Rose and Finn disguising themselves to pass as wealthy patrons (she could just borrow a ball gown from the improbably well-dressed Holdo) and constantly worrying about being discovered. Instead they just traipse into this exclusive club, sticking out a damn mile, and getting immediately apprehended only to find a similarly skilled codebreaker in the dungeon. Talk about convenience.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by Steam235 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:11 pm

The problem about trying to discuss The last Jedi is shown in the post above. Paragraph after paragraph about political movements and race and diversity. It's just a movie but people make a huge battle field for all sorts of issues.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:14 pm

Steam235 wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:11 pm
The problem about trying to discuss The last Jedi is shown in the post above. Paragraph after paragraph about political movements and race and diversity. It's just a movie but people make a huge battle field for all sorts of issues.
If media weren't a battlefield for these sorts of issues we wouldn't constantly hear about the need for diversity and inclusion in media. Star Trek has been doing this since it's inception. Whoopi Goldberg was so excited to see Uhura on Star Trek because she was a black woman who "ain't no maid". There's nothing wrong with that. The problem, and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks this, is that it's not enough for Hollywood to make new characters, they also have to dispense with the old ones.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by ProfArturo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:24 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:31 pm
ProfArturo wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:55 pm
I hated TFA for being utterly derivative, and whilst I liked that TLJ tried to be different and subvert expectations, I really didn't like what they did do.

The whole theme of the film was letting go of the past, letting go of heroes - and the final scene was a boy taking inspiration from an old hero.

A total mess.
Derivative of the original 3 movies? If so, I agree... But it was overall a fun movie. My understanding is that a lot of younger culture now involves media that makes very blatant direct references to current and past things. Heavily. I could be wrong, I don't follow much anymore.

With TLJ, who was the boy taking inspiration from? I'm not following you there.

I'll never get why so many people felt that the only way forward for the new heroes, was to literally leave behind or kill of the old. That there can't be a passing of the torch that let's the old see that things are in good hands. That the new have a respect for the old and relish that they're now keeping them safe. But man, Disney really wants to kill everyone off.
Yes, especially A New Hope. If I want to see that again I'll watch it, I don't need a quasi-remake. At least George Lucas, for all his faults, made an effort to produce something original and different for each film he directed. New planets, new storylines.

The boy at the end of TLJ is talking about Luke Skywalker with reverence, which I took to completely undermine the theme of letting go of heroes.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by ProfArturo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:25 pm

Also, something similar happened with Alien - the old 'fanboys' didn't like Ridley's prequel Prometheus so the next film ended up being a disappointing rip off of the original.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 pm

WarpNein wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:38 pm
patrickivan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:31 pm
I'll never get why so many people felt that the only way forward for the new heroes, was to literally leave behind or kill of the old. That there can't be a passing of the torch that let's the old see that things are in good hands. That the new have a respect for the old and relish that they're now keeping them safe. But man, Disney really wants to kill everyone off.
It strikes me as a sort of cultural iconoclasm to be honest, predicated on a desire not for inclusion but for usurpation. It's not enough to pass the torch, the torch has to be snatched away and the previous runner dishonored.

And I certainly feel a threat for being white and male these days, but it's more for what a certain angry subgroup of liberals want to happen than what I think actually will. Liberalism depends on a fractious minority coalition of gays, blacks, Latinos and other groups united under the banner of Disadvantaged and in opposition to the supposedly dominant white straight male patriarchy. Problem is history and reality are rather more complex than that simplistic narrative. The minority coalition is riven with fractures between white feminists and "POC" feminists, feminists and trans activists (see: TERFs) white gays and black gays, etc. I fear liberalism for what it intends: using the minority coalition to exact race- and gender-based revenge. That's why you see such virulent racism and sexism directed at minority and female conservatives by supposedly tolerant liberals, with terms like coon, Uncle Tom, house n****r, "internalized misogyny" (the very accusation of which is itself misogynist) etc, because they're not part of the coalition. But I don't think it will ever reach that point, because their coalition will disintegrate from it's own internecine divisions because minorities are not as monolithic as liberals think they are.

I remember ten years ago when I was a liberal and being amazed that black people generally weren't on board with gay rights. "It's just like their civil rights struggle, what's wrong with them" I would say. My early 20s college-student liberal psychology considered minority groups like chess pieces to be positioned against my then political opponents.

The Canto Bight arc feels like an indulgence of anti-wealthy sentiment because we're not really given a reason to hate the wealthy gamblers beyond their wealth. It's established they're not really accomplices of the First Order as they sell weapons to both sides. I suppose they have child slaves, but Rose wastes no time doing nothing whatsoever about that. There isn't enough time spent on world building in the film. We're just thrust into scenes and expected to react based on preconceptions. "These people are wealthy and partying it up while the First Order tightens the noose. Hate them!". That's not enough motivation for me, and thus their comeuppance feels undeserved.

I think the scene would work much better as a tense James Bond style infiltration scene rather than an action set piece. We already have a ticking clock element from the cruiser chase that's happening simultaneously. It should have been about Rose and Finn disguising themselves to pass as wealthy patrons (she could just borrow a ball gown from the improbably well-dressed Holdo) and constantly worrying about being discovered. Instead they just traipse into this exclusive club, sticking out a damn mile, and getting immediately apprehended only to find a similarly skilled codebreaker in the dungeon. Talk about convenience.
Angry sub group of liberals?

Come on, man... Those people you just described is extreme liberalism. That's a minority. And that's no different than extreme conservatism that completely abhors change based on fear.

The majority of people just want to live their lives. And no one can argue that people of colour, people of different sexual orientation, people of divergent sex, first nations peoples, and women, have not been utterly screwed in North American culture. I can't understand how a white male is threatened by having anyone else have the same advantages and parity in life. And that life means to pretty much just be able to get a job, go to stores and buy a !!!!!!!! cake, get married, adopt a child, without having someone be so bigoted and threatened just because that person isn't a white strait male.

There is no way that can be argued against. And to let "those" people, who are just people, live those lives, means that we have to make conscious choices in life. Because if popular media and government doesn't prod us along, gay people will keep getting beaten up for being nothing more than gay or not be "allowed" to get married, or buy the cake from a !!!!!!!! bigot (I don't care what you're personal religious beliefs are- no one should deny someone anything if it doesn't hurt anyone). Women will keep playing second fiddle to men. Black people will keep getting shot for being black. First Nation's people will keep being treated like complete garbage because we had the gall to move into to their country.

Jesus, man, I'm white. I'm no liberal. I'm completely bi-partisan. I think for myself. I used to be that bigoted kid who made fun of gays, black people, and natives. But I learned... I evolved into something far better. And our society and world would be a hell of a lot better if it weren't for fear of change and equality.

And like I said, we need those pushes in life. Star Trek was a huge influence on my young stupid bigoted change to something better. What a stupid kid I was. And that's all I see in people who are afraid now. They're just dumb kids. And it's partly not their fault. People are products of their environments.

But it's change and evolve or die out.

I do know one thing. If there was ever a war based on these prejudices, I know what side I'm on. The right side. The side that abhors subjugation. The side that promotes equality for all. Justice for all. The kind that doesn't hate because someone is different.

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