STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

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patrickivan
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STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:18 pm

First let me preface this that I am not some misogynistic anti-woman, or anti-Asian, !!!!!!!!.

There were many things about TLJ that really !!!!!!!! me off. First was killing of Luke. That was the biggy. The second was making Rey play such a small role in the movie. Third, was the absolute complete waste of 45 minutes Canto Bight sub-plot. Ugh....

And finally, the purpose of this thread, is how incredibly pointless Rose Tico's character was, and the odd amount of screen time she got.

NOW- I could care less about the actor herself. She's just doing a job, and all the pricks out there who dump on her, are just pure trolls in my opinion.

But her character just stood out as such a useless role. Absolutely everything the character did was beyond bland. And while I get the gender parity/ equality movement that Disney is engaged in, their continuing push to include her seems more out of spite now, than to serve an actual story line point.

Every bloody promotional poster I see, there is useless Rose Tico's character hanging out with the popular gang for some reason.

Inclusivity is fine, but if you don't have a reason that helps drive the actual story, you're just killing it for me.

Am I the only one that really can't stand it when her character pops up somewhere? And is anyone else not looking forward to the next movie cramming this square peg into a small round hole?

I think this rant just popped into my head due to reading Marvel's upcoming new comic series focusing on 24 characters in the 3 Star Wars periods, and she was on, and listed as one of those 24.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:18 pm

The Last Jedi is bad overall, but there are things that, handled by a more competent writer, could have worked well. Poe's lesson about "when to fold 'em" as it were is a good moral for his development from a trigger happy flyboy into a real leader. He's the only character with a real arc. Part of Hollywood's problem is that diversity is now a substitute for good writing, and the stock response to complaints about poor writing and poor characterization is trite accusations of misogyny and racism. It's all mindless and facile. And sure there are trolls which disliked Tico just for being fat and Asian and failing to live up to an idealized female figure, but they're nowhere near a majority and their existence doesn't absolve Rian of his mistakes. The other major problem with diversity is that liberal writers seem loath to write diverse characters with actual flaws, resulting in women and minority characters who are too perfect to be believable (namely Rey). The single most annoying Rey moment was TFA when she "bypasses the compressor" by pulling a chip out of the wall of the Falcon's cockpit. So not only does she know more about the ship than Han Solo, but every time we've seen Han or Chewie work on the hyperdrive they've been in the hole in the floor in the rear compartment. It's a terrible moment for both the character and the technology. The fuel problem isn't really unique to TLJ. We saw X-wings being fueled up with something in ANH, and deleted ROTS scenes showed Anakin and Obiwan escaping into the Invisible Hand's fuel tanks, so it's not unprecedented as an idea.

I think many fans were shocked by the choices Rian made. Now 9 months removed from the film, my biggest issues are the ways in which he broke established canon (the hyperspace ramming) and the pointless shoehorning of feel-good sloganeering, which rears it's head mainly in the Canto Bight sequence. Rian slaps us across the face with anti-wealthy bromides taken right out of the mouth of Occupy, and a ridiculous animal rights message made so by the fact that Rose prefers saving cartoon rabbit dogs over actual child slaves. When she's not acting as Rian's mouthpiece I don't have as much issue with her. I can certainly buy her being technically minded and her scenes on the cruiser are okay. I'm even okay with her interrupting Finn's sacrifice. He's more useful alive than dead, although I feel making Rose's reasoning love rather than utility is odd since they have precisely no chemistry on screen.

My big character problem comes from Holdo, which is sad because she was set up to be both a foil to Poe's hotheadedness and a successor to Leia, both of which could have made her a great character. I like Laura Dern as an actor. But Holdo ends up triggering Poe's hotheadedness and being killed off, so it's just a big waste. She should have been the one to directly teach him that lesson and bring him over to her side. It would have established her as a good leader, being able to gain her subordinate's trust, and set her up to replace Leia as Poe's mentor figure. Instead Rian just throws her away. For a similar sequence, I point you to Way of the Warrior when Gowron, facing down DS9 and an incoming Federation flotilla, remembered the wisdom of Kahless that "ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat.". That's essentially the moral of Poe's arc.

Add to that the very real issue of tonal whiplash throughout the movie, with the frankly godawful "humor" and the contrived cloying mascots.

And yes, there are many defenses one could mount about how Holdo's rank entitles her to Poe's deference, and the point that Rian was trying to tell a nuanced story where the lines between good and bad are blurred (as observed by DJ to Finn) and characters make mistakes and fail (since the greatest teacher failure is). I get all that. But the audience mouting these sorts of defenses amounts to them doing the thinking Rian should have done when he was writing the damn thing.

I think TLJ is so frustrating precisely because the movie could have been good, and thinking about all the various ways to recut, reedit, reshoot and otherwise remake it into a better movie is going to bedevil many fans for years. And it bears a mark that isn't it's fault. Carrie Fisher died having her last appearance in Star Wars be a moment of defeat and spending most of the movie unconscious. It's unfair to judge the film for that, but it's a raw spot to be sure.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:38 pm

I forgot about Hux. Hux is awful in TLJ. I always considered him a bit too young to be a general in TFA, but in TLJ he's essentially a racist caricature, epitomizing the Social Justice Warrior's stereotypical attitude towards White Males. He has power he hasn't earned and clearly doesn't deserve, and the second something doesn't go his way he cries and pouts. You can't have dramatic tension if most of your bad guys are pitiful jokes. Hux was at least somewhat threatening in TFA, but Rian's heavy handedness weighs down the narrative again.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by Steam235 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:29 pm

I think I came back to AST on the wrong day...

Patrickivan, you're being triggered by seeing merchandising for Star Wars because it has a character you don't like? That's pretty extreme. You seem flat out mad that she exists. Who do we have in the new movies for the good guys? Poe, Finn, Rey, and Rose. Of course she's going to be featured in the merchandising.

Warpnein, You're going off about liberal writers, the occupy movement, social justice warriors. You're claiming the movie was racist against white males? Sure you dressed a lot of your feelings up in your critique of the movie's directing but you really seem to be tilting at windmills that aren't there.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by kobayashimaru » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:34 am

It's great to see
fans have these kinds of discussions -
"what is continuity vs apocrypha; when does confabulation/conflation become effacement ?" :D

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by WarpNein » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:07 am

Steam235 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:29 pm
Warpnein, You're going off about liberal writers, the occupy movement, social justice warriors. You're claiming the movie was racist against white males? Sure you dressed a lot of your feelings up in your critique of the movie's directing but you really seem to be tilting at windmills that aren't there.
Not the movie, just Hux's portrayal. It's significantly different from his appearance in TFA. There, he was a credible villain, if a little young. Here, he's a comic relief whose behavior exemplifies what Rian Jonhson and his ilk think of "man-babies," entitled white males who cry and throw tantrums when they don't get their way. Hux in TFA served as a foil to Kylo. His purpose in TLJ is to be a laughingstock. He gets humiliated by Poe and tossed around by both Snoke and Kylo. Given Rian's animosity towards critical fans and his on-the-record preference for divisive movies and subverted expectations, I don't think Hux's character turn is accidental. Liberals could say "gotcha" and suggest I'm being overly sensitive and displaying the very behavior I despise coming from them, but given Hollywood's predilection for ritual self-flagellation over its whiteness and maleness I don't think I'm off the mark. Liberals could also say that Hollywood is dominated by white male actors and directors even as it lambastes them, but that just evinces exactly the hypocrisy I just mentioned. You can see that with Kathleen Kennedy's desire for female and/or minority Star Wars directors in interviews, while she proceeds to hire white men over and over again to helm these projects. I think most people in Hollywood are hypocrites who want room to be made for minorities and women just so long as its not them making the room. It's similar to urban NIMBY's demanding expanded services for the poor and homeless just as long as no such services are built anywhere near them. It's the same story over and over again with these slacktivists whatever their pet issue is: "Oh woe is me, someone has to do something" (someone else).

Now, people have suggested that Kylo himself is sort of a shot at white male fanboys. The problem with that is that Kylo's characterization is consistent between the two movies and makes perfect sense. His power is unmerited. He wanted more than he was ready for, which is diagnostic of people who fall to the Sith.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:03 pm

WarpNein wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:18 pm
The Last Jedi is bad overall, but there are things that, handled by a more competent writer, could have worked well. Poe's lesson about "when to fold 'em" as it were is a good moral for his development from a trigger happy flyboy into a real leader. He's the only character with a real arc. Part of Hollywood's problem is that diversity is now a substitute for good writing, and the stock response to complaints about poor writing and poor characterization is trite accusations of misogyny and racism. It's all mindless and facile. And sure there are trolls which disliked Tico just for being fat and Asian and failing to live up to an idealized female figure, but they're nowhere near a majority and their existence doesn't absolve Rian of his mistakes. The other major problem with diversity is that liberal writers seem loath to write diverse characters with actual flaws, resulting in women and minority characters who are too perfect to be believable (namely Rey). The single most annoying Rey moment was TFA when she "bypasses the compressor" by pulling a chip out of the wall of the Falcon's cockpit. So not only does she know more about the ship than Han Solo, but every time we've seen Han or Chewie work on the hyperdrive they've been in the hole in the floor in the rear compartment. It's a terrible moment for both the character and the technology. The fuel problem isn't really unique to TLJ. We saw X-wings being fueled up with something in ANH, and deleted ROTS scenes showed Anakin and Obiwan escaping into the Invisible Hand's fuel tanks, so it's not unprecedented as an idea.

I think many fans were shocked by the choices Rian made. Now 9 months removed from the film, my biggest issues are the ways in which he broke established canon (the hyperspace ramming) and the pointless shoehorning of feel-good sloganeering, which rears it's head mainly in the Canto Bight sequence. Rian slaps us across the face with anti-wealthy bromides taken right out of the mouth of Occupy, and a ridiculous animal rights message made so by the fact that Rose prefers saving cartoon rabbit dogs over actual child slaves. When she's not acting as Rian's mouthpiece I don't have as much issue with her. I can certainly buy her being technically minded and her scenes on the cruiser are okay. I'm even okay with her interrupting Finn's sacrifice. He's more useful alive than dead, although I feel making Rose's reasoning love rather than utility is odd since they have precisely no chemistry on screen.

My big character problem comes from Holdo, which is sad because she was set up to be both a foil to Poe's hotheadedness and a successor to Leia, both of which could have made her a great character. I like Laura Dern as an actor. But Holdo ends up triggering Poe's hotheadedness and being killed off, so it's just a big waste. She should have been the one to directly teach him that lesson and bring him over to her side. It would have established her as a good leader, being able to gain her subordinate's trust, and set her up to replace Leia as Poe's mentor figure. Instead Rian just throws her away. For a similar sequence, I point you to Way of the Warrior when Gowron, facing down DS9 and an incoming Federation flotilla, remembered the wisdom of Kahless that "ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat.". That's essentially the moral of Poe's arc.

Add to that the very real issue of tonal whiplash throughout the movie, with the frankly godawful "humor" and the contrived cloying mascots.

And yes, there are many defenses one could mount about how Holdo's rank entitles her to Poe's deference, and the point that Rian was trying to tell a nuanced story where the lines between good and bad are blurred (as observed by DJ to Finn) and characters make mistakes and fail (since the greatest teacher failure is). I get all that. But the audience mouting these sorts of defenses amounts to them doing the thinking Rian should have done when he was writing the damn thing.

I think TLJ is so frustrating precisely because the movie could have been good, and thinking about all the various ways to recut, reedit, reshoot and otherwise remake it into a better movie is going to bedevil many fans for years. And it bears a mark that isn't it's fault. Carrie Fisher died having her last appearance in Star Wars be a moment of defeat and spending most of the movie unconscious. It's unfair to judge the film for that, but it's a raw spot to be sure.
Motives for the message aside from the Canto Bight arc, it was just plain boring and bad. Long winded, and turned out to be really useless attempt at pointless levity. And to collect a codebreaker that wasn't even needed... It literally is a part of the movie I fast forward through.

I get what you're saying about Rey on the Falcon. In her defence, she is incredibly intelligent. She was brought up in a mechanical/ technological environment, and it seems that she was familiar with the Falcon. She may have had lots of time on it helping with tinkering here and there, and even been on it during flights around the town.. I don't know. They really wanted to force in a LOT into TFA, but TFA was far superior to TLJ. Though I still enjoy a lot of TLJ.

Holdo... I really found her character odd. I had no idea about her back story, and it seemed like here's someone thrown into the mix, and then she dies! They either should have developed the character, or just left it all out. But they needed a sacrifice I suppose, so they pigeon holed in someone quickly to try to get some empathy from the viewer. That was my take on it.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:15 pm

Steam235 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:29 pm
I think I came back to AST on the wrong day...

Patrickivan, you're being triggered by seeing merchandising for Star Wars because it has a character you don't like? That's pretty extreme. You seem flat out mad that she exists. Who do we have in the new movies for the good guys? Poe, Finn, Rey, and Rose. Of course she's going to be featured in the merchandising.

Warpnein, You're going off about liberal writers, the occupy movement, social justice warriors. You're claiming the movie was racist against white males? Sure you dressed a lot of your feelings up in your critique of the movie's directing but you really seem to be tilting at windmills that aren't there.
Oh sheesh....

I clearly stated that I had issues her useless character, and how they're marketing her heavily, despite her being a nothing character. Like, Ewoks had more gravitas than she did.

And what I was complaining about, was that exact point of her being a useless character. Of course I expect her to be used in merchandizing and continuing stories, but my point was why so heavily? Her character served no purpose. Her character was bland as !!!!!!!!. Her character was just dropped into the mix and given an entire arc that served no purpose and was boring as hell. So many people think it was useless, and most defenders are doing so because they think any criticism of her is personal and based on the actor herself, which like I clearly stated, people who do so are complete trolls.

I'd probably suggest engaging in your point of view against the topic I present, as opposed to using words to describe me as mad, or extreme, or triggered. That doesn't contribute anything more than an attack really.

And yes, Star Wars is and should be about the Good Guys vs the Bad Guys. If I want the grey fuzzies in between, or the drama of the non-hero mundane characters, then I'd watch Coronation Street or some other Soap.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:30 pm

WarpNein wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:07 am
Steam235 wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:29 pm
Warpnein, You're going off about liberal writers, the occupy movement, social justice warriors. You're claiming the movie was racist against white males? Sure you dressed a lot of your feelings up in your critique of the movie's directing but you really seem to be tilting at windmills that aren't there.
Not the movie, just Hux's portrayal. It's significantly different from his appearance in TFA. There, he was a credible villain, if a little young. Here, he's a comic relief whose behavior exemplifies what Rian Jonhson and his ilk think of "man-babies," entitled white males who cry and throw tantrums when they don't get their way. Hux in TFA served as a foil to Kylo. His purpose in TLJ is to be a laughingstock. He gets humiliated by Poe and tossed around by both Snoke and Kylo. Given Rian's animosity towards critical fans and his on-the-record preference for divisive movies and subverted expectations, I don't think Hux's character turn is accidental. Liberals could say "gotcha" and suggest I'm being overly sensitive and displaying the very behavior I despise coming from them, but given Hollywood's predilection for ritual self-flagellation over its whiteness and maleness I don't think I'm off the mark. Liberals could also say that Hollywood is dominated by white male actors and directors even as it lambastes them, but that just evinces exactly the hypocrisy I just mentioned. You can see that with Kathleen Kennedy's desire for female and/or minority Star Wars directors in interviews, while she proceeds to hire white men over and over again to helm these projects. I think most people in Hollywood are hypocrites who want room to be made for minorities and women just so long as its not them making the room. It's similar to urban NIMBY's demanding expanded services for the poor and homeless just as long as no such services are built anywhere near them. It's the same story over and over again with these slacktivists whatever their pet issue is: "Oh woe is me, someone has to do something" (someone else).

Now, people have suggested that Kylo himself is sort of a shot at white male fanboys. The problem with that is that Kylo's characterization is consistent between the two movies and makes perfect sense. His power is unmerited. He wanted more than he was ready for, which is diagnostic of people who fall to the Sith.
I'm pretty sure they made Hux sit back a little, mainly because they clearly wanted to inject some contemporary levity into the film. They weren't going to use a new character for that scene because we have an established one to use.

And honestly, he didn't come off as being stupid. His responses were fairly honest if you think about it. Then again, personally, I'd have written it as Poe tries to open communications, and Hux responds with Open Fire. But This is Disney, and ALL of their movies have this kind of humour. For the past 10-15 years.

And Hollywood isn't dumping on being white or men. They're simply responding to society's slow evolution to things being more equal. No one can dispute the past, entire freakin' history of the world, of women being second fiddle to men. And no one can dispute that recent history of western Europe's rise of white men holding a disproportionate amount of power over people of colour. From just on after the 1000-1400's AD on in Western Europe, to especially the past 300 years in North America, women have had to fight and fight and fight to be seen as more than just baby makers and homemakers.

Yes, other parts of the world have serious issues regarding human rights, but that's not the point, and not where I live.

Holywood is a reflection of it's market. That's another way to look at it. They will only sell what people will buy, and they are just part of the change in society.

As a white male in his 40's who is in no way in a position of power or authority, living a lower middle income life, and who works in an incredibly diverse work environment (I'm the minority here), I am in no way threatened, have felt threatened, or fear the future. I have no issue being a white male, and have no issue being a minority should it be the case in society.

The world will keep spinning (until we blow it up). People will keep breeding (and over populate the world). Cultures will CHANGE and by all that is good in the world, without CHANGE, we will all stagnate and destroy ourselves.

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Re: STAR WARS TLJ: Rose Tico

Post by patrickivan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:31 pm

N.b.

Rose Tico is still the most useless character ever in Star Wars. And Canto Bight sucked.

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