Dominion v Borg

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MadManMUC
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Dominion v Borg

Post by MadManMUC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:59 am

Reading Hossfly72's V'Ger = Borg thread reminded me of this particular speculative fan-favourite that routinely makes the rounds of Trek boards:

Who would win in a war, the Borg or the Dominion?

Here's my take.

The fact is, there's actually expetionally little information available on both to make a definitive determination. We don't know, for example, if the Borg also manifest any abilities from assimilated races (e.g. Betazoid telepathy/empathy, et cetera). If they do, then that would give the Borg a hands-down advantage. However, I'm guessing they don't, because we've never seen it on-screen.

As for the Dominion, we know actually scant little about them as an organisation/empire, in terms of constituent races. We've only ever been exposed to the Changelings, the Vorta, The Jem'Hadar and the Karemma. And two of those are basically manufactured by the Changelings. Surely, there must be other species in the Gamma quadrant that make up the Dominion, and might have unique game-changing abilities of their own. Since we haven't seen any of these other races (the Breen are an Alpha quadrant race), we'll just have to go with the ones we know.

A SIMPLY STORY PREMISE

Having had their arses handed to them over and over again in the Alpha quadrant, and knowing that their neighbours in the Gamma quadrant got a kick in the bollocks from the Federation, the Borg decide to have a go at assimilating the Dominion.

LIKELIHOOD OF ASSIMILATION

Now let's look at how likely is would be for the Borg to succeed in assimilating the various known constituent races of the Domnion.

Karemma
They seem on par with other races found in the galaxy, with very little shown by way of anything special. Assimilation would be certain.

Jem'Hadar
Challenging, but by no means impossible. The Jem'Hadar are certainly no slouches, being — effectively — the Gamma quadrant's Klingons. They have two things that make them essential in the front line of this particular dust-up: unwavering loyalty to the Founders, and a penchant for suicide runs. This could prove useful in taking down a Borg cube or two. Ultimately, though, the Borg would adapt to the tactics, and eventually assimilate the lot. The Jem'Hadar alone wouldn't be able to take the Borg down.

One of the points DS9 fanboys love to make in these discussions is the fact that the Jem'Hadar are addicted to that drug the Founders give them to ensure loyalty, and — therefore — that would make the Borg addicted to it, too. To which I say: bullsh*t. The whole premise of the Borg is that they modify assimilated species' DNA to integrate them into the collective, and it's certainly not a stretch to say that Borg nanoprobes would make the necessary alterations to the Jem'Hadar brain to weed out the addiction.

Vorta
Push-overs. They seemingly have no will or ability to fight on their own. Indeed, there's not been an all-Vorta warship ever shown. They may be able tacticians, but they're just the brains behind Jem'Hadar brawn. Given that they're clones, however, would make them interesting for the Borg, who would most likely want to integrate the cloning technology into the Collective. Assimilated without effort.

Changelings
This is where is gets awkward for the Borg. My gut says that shape-shifting wouldn't work for the Borg, because it would likely only affect the biological components of the Borg drone. In other words, I can't see the Borg being able to integrate the machine. Also, just by their very nature, Changelings could hide from the Borg by being anything they fancy: rocks, clouds, trees, birds, anything. And, if worst came to worst, they could do like they did in their past, and just run from the Borg, especially if they come after the Founders' home world.

WHEN THE DUST SETTLES

The Verdict:

Borg v Dominion (as a political entity) — Borg win
Borg v Changelings — stalemate
Last edited by MadManMUC on Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dominion v Borg

Post by TrekMD » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:34 pm

This is something that has been debated for some time. I agree with what you've concluded. The Changelings themselves will not be easy to assimilate but the rest of the Dominion should not prove to be such a challenge. The Borg would adapt to the technology. As for the Jem'Hadar, I have to wonder if the Borg would find them worthy of assimilation because of the ketracel white addiction. I'm sure the nanoprobes can eliminate the issue but, since the Borg seek perfection, how would adding a bunch of addicted clones add to the collective? Brute force?
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Re: Dominion v Borg

Post by el gato » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:07 pm

My problem with the Jem'Hadar is even more basic. They're addicted to ketracel white, otherwise they can't function. So what do they have sticking out of their collars, for all the universe to see, with little protection, just waiting for it to be caught by a jagged edge or be pulled out by a stray something during combat??

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Surely someone at some point would've thought to have the IV tube hidden so that it's not such an easy target. And before you say anything, think of sleeves that get caught in door knobs or arm rests with you not even trying.
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Re: Dominion v Borg

Post by MadManMUC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm

Haha, you're not wrong! You'd think the Founders would have engineered things such that this drug was delivered subdermally, similar to contraceptive implants.
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Re: Dominion v Borg

Post by slawton » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:35 pm

I agree with the previous discussion that some of the member species of the Dominion could be assimilated, meaning the Borg could gain intelligence on Dominion strategy, strength, location and technology. The Dominion's shape shifter's could also infiltrate (if they haven't already) and also gather similar intelligence on the Borg. Still, assimilation will both weaken the Dominion and strengthen the Borg. Advantage: Borg (essentially equal at first, favoring the Borg in the long run).

Historically, the initiator of the war has an advantage (either they prepared for the conflict in advance or knew they would likely win in a war with their opponent). Let's assume these 2 superpowers continue their growth until they finally make contact, meaning neither side has made initial preparations for the upcoming war. The Borg aren't conquerors, they're assimilators. I'd suspect they would send in a cube or 2 to do what they do best. On the other hand, the Dominion, seeing the threat would go to an all-out war footing, ramping up production of ships and soldiers. Advantage: Dominion (in the beginning stages, but also greatly depends on their relative starting strengths, which are unknown/speculative)

The initial strength of the Dominion can be guessed at by the forces seen in the DS9 Dominion War, where the Dominion had several thousand ships at their disposal and the ability to rapidly create even more. Since this was in the alpha quadrant, we'd have to assume this is only the tip of the iceberg indicating the entire Dominion would be several multiples of the forces we are made aware of (most still residing in the gamma quadrant). The Borg have 15 cubes whiz by to attack species 8472, 47 cubes near a transwarp hub, hundreds of cubes surrounding Arturis's homeworld, etc. We don't know how small a fraction of the Borg fleet this represents or how much species 8472 decimated the Borg, but a cube is more than a match for any single Dominion vessel. Advantage: Unknown

During wars, technology often plays a crucial role. The Borg have advanced propulsion (warp, Transwarp capable), weaponry (Beam and projectile weapons, cutting beams, magnetometric guided charges, shield-draining missiles, tractor beams), defensive capabilities (subspace field, electromagnetic field, regeneration, force field, adaptive shielding, ablative hull armor), transport capabilities (even through Federation shields) and other miscellaneous (nanites, some time travel capability, etc.). The Dominion has advanced propulsion (warp capable), weaponry (phased polaron beams, directed energy weapons, disruptors, torpedoes, Breen energy dissipater), defensive capabilities (shields impervious to tractor beam locks), transport capabilities (even through Federation shields) and other miscellaneous (detect cloaked ships, etc.). Advantage: Borg (slight)

The tactics of the Borg typically include tractor beam, drain shields and either assimilate or destroy the opponent. They are almost unconcerned about defense or casualties. The Enterprise D initial encounter did heavy damage to a cube (~20%) before they adapted and regenerated. They were able to board several Borg vessels unopposed. The Dominion use more traditional tactics, but usually outmatch their opponents in firepower, defenses and numbers. While the Dominion would certainly have more success (due to their superior technology and numbers) than their alpha quadrant counterparts, the Borg have displayed great adapting capabilities. Advantage: Borg (in the long run, but the Dominion could score victories early on)

Diplomacy can also play a factor. The Borg do not negotiate. The Dominion on the other hand coerced a number of other powers to join their cause against the Federation, Klingons and later the Romulans. They should have an easy time collecting helpful allies in the fight against the Borg. Advantage: Dominion

In the unknown history of the Borg, they've assimilated thousands of species (so they are highly successful overall). However, in the known encounters, they've suffered numerous defeats including 2 Borg cubes and 2 spheres deep inside the Federation (at high cost to the Federation, but still under 100 starships), 15 Borg cubes to species 8472, a probe to Voyager, several more cubes to an advanced Voyager. The Dominion was also highly successful (dominant force of the gamma quadrant) prior to being discovered. Although the good guys prevailed, the Dominion had a number of victories (albeit using a larger force and help from allies). So the Dominion seemed to fair better against a common opponent, but it seems we were really lucky against the Borg (who are unconcerned about their losses), but were smart/lucky against the Dominion (who are hurting from their bloody nose). So I'd say the Borg would try again and eventually wear us down/succeed, whereas the Dominion is less likely to "go there" again.

There's also intangibles, mostly with the Borg. Their collective is both a strength and a weakness. They could be vulnerable via Collective access (like telling them to sleep, Hugh introducing individuality, an invasive program which would function as a slow-acting virus to destroy the entire Borg Collective from within or hearing Collective thoughts and weaknesses - a vulnerable spot on a cube), anti-Borg nanites, support from species 8472, etc.

I could see the Dominion having initial success, even possibly destroying most of the Borg with an overwhelming force, but all it takes is a single Borg (with assimilating capabilities) to be a threat. It would be like trying to get rid of weeds, where they just keep popping back up somewhere else. Even if not at first, it is more likely to me that the Borg would persevere and win in the long run, unless some deadly intangible is used against the Borg. Unfortunately, it seems like the inevitable fate of all in the galaxy until someone puts and end to them or they change their modus operandi.
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Re: Dominion v Borg

Post by TrekMD » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:14 am

el gato wrote:My problem with the Jem'Hadar is even more basic. They're addicted to ketracel white, otherwise they can't function. So what do they have sticking out of their collars, for all the universe to see, with little protection, just waiting for it to be caught by a jagged edge or be pulled out by a stray something during combat??

Image

Surely someone at some point would've thought to have the IV tube hidden so that it's not such an easy target. And before you say anything, think of sleeves that get caught in door knobs or arm rests with you not even trying.
:lol: :lol: :lol: How true!
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