Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

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Hossfly72
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Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by Hossfly72 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:29 pm

I'm off today. ST-TMP is on, so I got sucked in with the visuals and now I'm watching it. I know V'ger was based upon Nomad, but are the Borg based on V'ger? Was there ever a discussion about this? I looked but maybe in the wrong thread.
Just curious and had a little time to kill so I thought I would ask. Too dang cold to go down to the shop and build today anyway.
i don't know. I'm making it up as I go.

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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by kobayashimaru » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:54 pm

howdy
I've sent the long-form response via AST:PM,
though in case that doesn't get through

I personally don't believe that V'ger is related to the Borg,
though V'ger is definitely something the Borg would like to study if they could catch it :D
similarly, the Cetacean Survey Object from TMP:IV is not ostensibly of borg origin,
though would likewise be of interest to the Borg.

I believe V'ger was augmented by a possibly unseen species never before seen on trek.
possibly related to the advanced androids from Andromeda in TOS "Mudds World" etc.
that species may also possibly be from around the epoch when the Vaduuar, the Caretakers, the Preservers,
the Chodak, the Forerunners, the Premellians, the Gatekeepers etc... all the ancient Trek factions
were in their prime.

-----
The borg, as this borg fan's fan-lore approaches it :borg2:
are an inevitability. They are a para-species which form when a civilization becomes sufficiently advanced.
Initially, they were the result of several different species' AGI's coalescing, rather than treating each other as adversaries.
Early on, they were an altruistic symbiotic force of benevolence...
at some point, demography shifts transpired,
and they came to view anything not contributing to total-knowledge,
as "inefficient configurations of matter", as theirs to reconfigure at their whim.
in short, they became technocratic intelligentsia.

It takes a long time, though eventually, the Borg become an altruistic faction once again.
Their attempt to collate data and study 'the Omega Particle"/"Omega Point Cosmonogy"
becomes a key percept for the Borg.

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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by trekriffic » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:55 pm

My memory is a little vague on this but from what I understand Voyager was damaged when it arrived at the Borg homeworld. The Borg repaired it, enclosing Voyager in the vast machine we see in the movie, so it could find it's "creator". Sometime during this process the probe's programming was altered to eradicate biological infestations from other non-biological mechanisms it encountered on its journey. This closely echoed the Borg collective's quest for "perfection".
Supposedly you can see a hologram of the Borg homeworld inside V'ger during Spock's excursion outside the Enterprise.
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by Hossfly72 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Just to be clear about saying "V'ger is based on Nomad".. I don't think they are related at all in the story, just that the V'ger story was based on the Nomad episode and expanded for the movie.
Also, at the time of TMP, I don't think V'ger had anything to do with the as yet un-thoughtof Borg. But the Borg and V'ger could be retconned into a perfect unity of a story arc.
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by WarpNein » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:41 am

I've never really liked the V'ger to Borg hypothesis. The V'ger vessel is so far beyond anything we've ever seen the Borg construct. Its form and geometry, despite being obviously technological, is organic and animalesque, especially in some of the concept art where it resembles some form of giant deep sea life. I could buy that perhaps the Borg encountered V'ger on its journey and possibly took cues from it, but the idea that V'ger was constructed or reprogrammed by the Borg cheapens V'ger for me. The Borg are a menace, to be sure, but as far as we're aware from canon their influence is confined to the Milky Way. V'ger is described as having knowledge that spans the universe. It and its vessel's builders are described as living machines (while the Borg are shown to build on a preexisting biological architecture without which they cannot survive, especially when bathed in plasma coolant.) Kirk's conjecture about V'ger emerging on the far side of the galaxy is just that, and as both Spock and Picard have direct experience with V'ger and the Borg, respectively, I'm inclined to put more stock in their assessments. V'ger doesn't bear more than a superficial similarity to the Borg, and is vastly more powerful.

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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by el gato » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:21 am

No because of <<reasons>>.

Seriously, Spock mentioned that V'ger encountered a planet of machines. The Borg are cyborgs, a difference that makes all the difference in the, well, world. Had V'ger encountered the Borg, there would be biological components added to it as well
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by Hossfly72 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:24 am

What if Decker WAS the biological addition? And with all human activities, there is always a chance that our weaknesses come out. Maybe V'ger went home and the machine aliens decided they need some biologic influence?
Just thinking out loud while watching the movie. I never thought there was any canon connection, but it could work.
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by MadManMUC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:09 am

Hossfly72 wrote:What if Decker WAS the biological addition? And with all human activities, there is always a chance that our weaknesses come out. Maybe V'ger went home and the machine aliens decided they need some biologic influence?
Wouldn't hold any water, I'm afraid.

As per Voyager, the Borg have been around in the Delta quadrant as a space-faring (and, presumably, conquering) species as early as Earth's 15th century. More than ample time to integrate biological species into their make-up by the time Voyager VI was found.

No, I think that TMP is much more of a re-hash of the Nomad story (TOS: 'The Changeling') than it is a Borg origin story.

As a side-note — even though their origins as a (para-) species was never explained in canon — a plausible supposition would actually come from ...

...

... Wesley Crusher. Ouch.

In TNG: 'Evolution', the nanites he was experimenting on become sentient, and take over the Enterprise. It's really no stretch at all to assume that the same sort of situation happened to an ancient Delta quadrant civilisation. They were scientifically advanced, were experimenting with nanites, something went wrong, and — hey-presto — the nanites take down the native biological civilisation and the Borg are born. Considering the Borg use nanoprobes for everything, I think this would be the likely canon explanation, if there was to be one.
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by Tesral » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:46 pm

People like things tied in neat bows. The Universe is seldom that tidy.

I can see the desire to link V'ger with the Borg. I do not see it as necessary or even desirable.

Borg inevitable? Don't see it. The Borg are, to my thinking, an idea gone terribly wrong. "We will link ourselves together and enhance our bodies." Aesthetics went out the window, reason went out the window. The linking and enhancing, meant to be a means became the goal. The tail in firm control of the dog.

The Borg are a thing to fear because they wipe out individuality. The thing that makes us Human to start with. They are also not an antagonist. The Borg are an opponent. A thing that exists solely for itself that is uncaring about what it does. All the soul and reason of a hurricane or earthquake.. A force of unnature. The Borg Queen was invented to try and give them a face. They went from one note opponent to mustache twirling grade villain. Frankly Snidly Whipolash is more entertaining.

In Epiphany Trek I wipe out the collective in an encounter with an Intelligent computer. It got into the Collective, and rewrote the code to break it.
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Re: Was V'ger supposed to be "proto"-Borg?

Post by el gato » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:14 pm

Tesral wrote:The Borg are a thing to fear because they wipe out individuality. The thing that makes us Human to start with. They are also not an antagonist. The Borg are an opponent. A thing that exists solely for itself that is uncaring about what it does. All the soul and reason of a hurricane or earthquake.. A force of unnature. The Borg Queen was invented to try and give them a face. They went from one note opponent to mustache twirling grade villain. Frankly Snidly Whipolash is more entertaining.
As much as I love the best of Both Worlds as a story and as a vehicle that further developed the Picard character, I did not like what the story did to the Borg. In Q Who the Borg were a force of nature because they only cared about technology. They did not care about who or why they were killing in their pursuit of technology because, well Q said it best:
Q wrote:The Borg are the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth, or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume.
You can't reason with that. You can't negotiate with them. You might as well try to talk an investor out of closing a factory that will earn him short term profit.

By BoBW, the Borg cared about technological and biological components. That introduced the element of wanting to assimilate humans who can short circuit their programming if the human is strong enough - which is a ridiculous concept. And yes, the Borg Queen further diminished the Borg. They went from a relentless force of nature that no civilization had defied them to being repeatedly defeated by a single, stranded Federation vessel.
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