discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

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ProfArturo
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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by ProfArturo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:51 pm

I've really enjoyed most of it, especially the Saru home world episode and the character developement the bridge crew are finally getting.

However I really haven't liked the religious aspects - in particular how open to religion Pike seems to be.

It has never before had a place in Star Trek as far as Humans are concerned.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by patrickivan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:46 am

ProfArturo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:51 pm
I've really enjoyed most of it, especially the Saru home world episode and the character developement the bridge crew are finally getting.

However I really haven't liked the religious aspects - in particular how open to religion Pike seems to be.

It has never before had a place in Star Trek as far as Humans are concerned.

Why would being open to religion be a bad thing? I'm completely atheist and firmly believe that religion is contrary to our evolution, but I would never argue that people shouldn't believe in their gods or religions (unless it preaches intolerance and bigotry- then you can !!!!!!!! off), and certainly never tell them that they're wrong (unless again- intolerant, oppressive, bigoted, misogynistic). It's non productive to try to change people and for the most part, people either grow out of it, or they won't.

Besides, wouldn't you think that Pike's ability to respect the believe of another, be the best qualities someone can possess. And religions aren't all bad. They're made by people that reflect certain values, and a lot of those values are based on respecting each other. For the most part. There's a lot of nonsense as well, but that's usually tied up with antiquated views routed in oppression.

Regardless, unless I missed something, Pike may have some religion from his upbringings. I don't see religion disappearing in 200 years. It may be some lingering vestiges from his youth. Maybe even more of a nostalgia.

I was raised RC and admit to having occasional nostalgic feelings for related things. And I love me my Christmas more for the memory, and for the family togetherness, and general well being it seems to garner in people that time of year.

Picard had a respect for religion as well. The episode involving the Federation/ Cardassian relocation of the Native Colony. Being able to interact with alien cultures that were religious would require a great deal of religious understanding and theory. Kirk wed, what was her name, McGyvers (?), and the other crewman who died. I can't recall his name. There's certainly aspects of religion in Star Trek. But I certainly appreciate the overall tone that humans shed those beliefs for the most part.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by WarpNein » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:00 pm

I see this again and again and it has always puzzled me.

I suppose a firm distinction has to be drawn between religion as a set of orthodox rites and prescribed beliefs and spirituality as a more generalized sense of there being Something More.

I too was raised Roman Catholic, became an atheist around 13 or so, and persisted in that until my late 20s. Looking back I can see I never thought too deeply about what my atheism really was. It was antipathy to organized religion, but lacked much of a rigorous philosophical core. The more I began to develop that, the more I moved away from a staunchly atheist outlook. Religion is valuable insofar as a core set of ideas serves to unite a community around a shared set of moral principles. In this sense, religion doesn't need to have anything to do with God or the supernatural. It has been observed that many modern movements would fit the bill of secular religion, or something religion-adjacent. (Here's an excellent breakdown: https://areomagazine.com/2018/12/18/pos ... l-justice/) They have a core set of ideas that are held to be inviolable, they generally have a priestly class that divulges and interprets Truth to the masses, that sort of thing. Environmentalism, feminism, gun rights, even atheism/skepticism depending on how it's practiced can fit this bill. And hilariously, they're prone to all the internecine conflicts that more traditional religions are. See trans-exclusionary vs. trans-inclusionary feminism, atheism vs Atheism Plus, etc. (E.G.: I'm basically an environmental apostate because I support nuclear power. The grossly uninformed "but muh Chernobyl" BS I got from other environmentalists ended my involvement in it)

A cursory look at Star Trek certainly seems to imply the stereotypical atheist idea. Once we've shed religion we will graduate into a new age of technological development. This is true insofar as certain religious ideas hold back progress. Chakotay said as much to Minister Odala in "Distant Origin." The Voth Doctrine she revered (she sacralized, in fact) predicted disaster if transwarp were ever attempted, but the Voth clearly moved beyond that particular aspect of it. Star Trek is full of ideas like this, doctrinal anathemas to technological and social progress, to the worship of false idols like Vaal in "The Apple." This gels well with an atheism that rejects controlling social power structures.

The problems arise when the idols aren't false at all. Atheism as opposition to organized religion and God as a controlling force is one thing, atheism as whole-cloth opposition to spiritual ideas and beings of any sort is another, and stands on far weaker footing. The monotheistic, Abrahamic conception of an all-powerful, all loving God is almost certainly false, in real life and in Star Trek. But Trek is chock full of godly entities. I'm sure were all familiar with that famous formulation:

Is God willing to prevent evil and not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he able and willing? Then whence cometh evil
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

There are many beings in Star Trek that fit three of these definitions. The Q, as close to omnipotent as any entity we've seen (though not truly so, as Quinn observed to Tuvok in "Death Wish, playing on Clarke's law about sufficiently advanced technology) are able, but not willing. In fact they are willing to inflict it. Q himself got 18 crewmembers killed in Q-Who to teach Picard a lesson. The teaching of a lesson could be interpreted as benevolent, but the methodology certainly wasn't. The Douwd from "The Survivors" is immortal, immune to Federation technology and so powerful he scoured an entire race from existence with an angry thought, an act he is grief-stricken by. There are many examples of non-corporeal near god-like aliens from the Organians in "Errand of Mercy" to Nagilum in "Where Silence Has Lease." Then there are the Prophets and the Pagh-Wraiths of DS9. The Prophets built the wormhole, exist outside of linear time, and were able to destroy the entire Dominion fleet in "Sacrifice of Angels." One of their number arranged Sisko's birth ahead of time. None of these fit an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent conception of God, but they certainly fit many other definitions. The Prophets destroyed the fleet to prevent Bajor's annihilation, but they were either unwilling or unable to prevent the Cardassian Occupation. And the Bajorans, in spite of their technology, would certainly be justified in regarding the Prophets as gods from a Clarke-ian point of view, even if the Federation regards them as "merely" wormhole aliens. Sisko eventually sheds the Federation's dismissiveness and outright pleads with them to intervene when all else is hopeless, and they do.

Things get even dicier when you consider issues related to ghosts and the afterlife. One tenet of particularly rigorous atheism is eliminative materialism, which holds that the mind is nothing but an epiphenomenon, a side effect of neuroelectrical activity and thus entirely dependent on the healthy existence of a brain to itself exist. The problem is that not only do we see a great many non-corporeal pure energy aliens, we also see human beings become disembodied consciousnesses. Picard beams into the cloud "energy only" in "Lonely Among Us." He has no body and thus no brain, but Troi can sense his presence in the cloud, and he gains access to the ship's circuitry and signals his presence with a P on the conn console. Interestingly, he doesn't retain any memory of the experience once he's rematerialized. Chakotay has his neural energy displaced in "Cathexis" and spends the entire episode as a disembodied consciousness (read: a ghost) taking over crewmembers and trying to prevent the ship from being taken over by the Qomar (themselves disembodied consciousnesses.) Also interestingly, he does remember it once he's reintegrated.

If consciousness can survive without the brain, as it can in Star Trek, ghosts and the afterlife are all on the table. Neither implies the existence of a god. So an atheism that merely opposes organized religion as an impediment to thought and technological and social growth is pretty much Star Trek's default attitude. But an eliminative materialist Skeptical atheism (in the sense meant by say, a James Randi or a Michael Shermer) that staunchly opposes any spiritual idea stands no chance in Star Trek.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by patrickivan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:54 am

Finally caught up to speed, having just viewed If Memory Serves, and Project Daedalus.

The introduction to If Memory Serves, was a very fun way to start the episode. The conflict between Burnham and Spock was interesting. I don't expect Burnham to have grown at all from this encounter. If anything, it'll be a footnote that she'll never refer to.

The side arc dealing with Culbert and Ash, made complete sense. I suspected that Saru's command decision in the mess was based on the conflict requiring resolution, though thought the public display was inappropriate, and was glad that Pike pretty much discussed that with Saru after the fact.

My point is, that some of the writing shows some thought that I appreciate as being more intelligent than bloody things like "silly Tilly" and pinky swears.

Project Daedalus was decent as well, though I found many things more irritating. The story overall was decent, but the journey at times was irritating and slow. Firstly was Tilly's once again, incredible lack of respect and professionalism when the Admiral arrived. And he later scene that involved her incredibly self centred juvenile line "I know you adored me", was just about the dumbest thing I have heard in all my years watching TV. My wife (far more forgiving than I am) immediately blurted out "who the !!!!!!!! says that?".

But aside from my nitpicking at stupid lines and scenes that should NOT be involved in a more intelligent 21st century programme (this isn't 1967), it was a decent filler episode to move us closer to end. Maybe not so much filler. There's clearly 3 stories being moved along for the series. The Red Angel time travel end of all life (I actually hate that it's THAT big). S.31 and who they are. And the Doctor. In this case, this episode was dealing a lot with S.31 and their powers.

While I'm nitpicking though. In warp seams to be very a very similar Kelvin universe movies effect. And the irritating part about that is how the ships seam to float around, bobbing, while in warp. It's really just a bizarre nonsense to show us how they're still moving... And the coming to instant dead stops out of warp. That they ripped off from the kelvin universe movies, that ripped off from the new battle star galactica, that they ripped off from Star Wars.

It doesn't kill the stories that are good, it's just a nitpicky effect I don't like them using.

Again, the pendulum for me is swinging in the direction of the enjoyment for the series, and I'm glad that's happening, or I'd had stopped watching it.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by patrickivan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:37 pm

Red Angel

What a horrible horrible climactic reveal episode. 30 odd minutes of crying (and !!!!!!!! me, singing) and pointless discussions. A massive court martial offence that wasn't even remotely addressed. And the climatic reveal during the last 2 minutes and end scene.

They have SO few episodes in a season, that to waste time on such nonsense just makes no sense.

Hopefully they get back on track next episode!

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by MEATLOAFr » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:43 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:37 pm
(and !!!!!!!! me, singing)
have you seen the rip off of RENT song they 'sang'? That was horrible

https://twitter.com/i/status/1091807053822144512
If the world ends tomorrow, it's ALL YOUR FAULT!!!

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by patrickivan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:06 pm

MEATLOAFr wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:43 pm
patrickivan wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:37 pm
(and !!!!!!!! me, singing)
have you seen the rip off of RENT song they 'sang'? That was horrible

https://twitter.com/i/status/1091807053822144512
No... with the exception of the musical episode of Scrubs, I despise musicals.

If I had the power to wipe off the face of the Earth 2 superfluous things (after wiping out racism, poverty, greed, murder, rape, et c.), it would be musicals and cats. With the exception of the musical Cats, simply for the irony. People would be like: What are those sounds they're making, and what are cats? heh.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by Tesral » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:28 pm

patrickivan wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:06 pm
If I had the power to wipe off the face of the Earth 2 superfluous things (after wiping out racism, poverty, greed, murder, rape, et c.), it would be musicals and cats. With the exception of the musical Cats, simply for the irony. People would be like: What are those sounds they're making, and what are cats? heh.

Cats keep me sane. I love my kitties. Don't like musicals or cats? Don't participate in ether.
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"I saw it done on Voyager" is no excuse for anything, even breathing.

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by Kremin » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 am

What about the musical episode of Buffy "Once more with feeling" did you not enjoy that? Lol

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Re: discovery season 2 set to premiere january 7th

Post by WarpNein » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:31 am

patrickivan wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:06 pm
If I had the power to wipe off the face of the Earth 2 superfluous things (after wiping out racism, poverty, greed, murder, rape, et c.), it would be musicals and cats.
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