A discussion of model scales

For everything Star Trek related, that isn't covered by the other forums.
Kratok
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Posts: 629
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:16 pm

A discussion of model scales

Post by Kratok » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:29 am

NOTE: This started as some posts within the Wish List sticky thread. It seemed to pull the focus from what was intended, and so was split off to its own thread. If it reads a little wonky for the first few posts, that is why. Thanks.
++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++


I've been thinking.

I love almost all of the Romulan ships from the old Armada games (Griffin, Raptor, Shadow, etc). I would love to see those done appropriately in 2500.

Or even 1400. Actually, I'd like to see more development of 1400 kits in general. It has been unjustly orphaned. 1400 spans the entire spectrum of Trek modeling - all eras, all ship sizes. Some of what is available in 1400 will never, never EVER be available in 1000. And some of us have way too much invested in 1400 to ever switch. I don't understand why, if they have already done the 3D work, GK manufacturers don't rescale and release new subjects in 1400. Why just 2500 and 1000? Why intentionally sabotage your own prospective sales (?)

SOME (not many) of the ships from Star Trek Online would be good 2500 candidates. The Borg are terribly under-represented in ALL scales (primarily because they are silicone mold eaters, and big/expensive beasts).

There are still some canon kits that have never been done. And a whole galaxy of fanon ideas that have merit in ALL of the scales.

I just wish we could have some love for the 1400 crowd with all this new kit goodness...

User avatar
Alternate Paradigms
Lemme At Em Lieutenant
Lemme At Em Lieutenant
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Alternate Paradigms » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Kratok wrote:Why intentionally sabotage your own prospective sales (?)
I can't speak for others, but from my experience it isn't about intentionally doing it. It's a big gamble. Printing something that is twice the length means also printing something that is 3 times the volume (sort of like how going from one kid to 2 kids ends up being 3 times the work). The master ends up costing more, needing more sales to offset the cost.

In addition, while it is true that a mesh can be upsized, it's not as simple as it looks. I received messages from 4-6 people requesting that I upscale my CVN-65 offering on SW. However, Shapeways kept rejecting the upsized meshes because it said some details "were too problematic" to print... even thought it was the same mesh that successfully printed in 2500. I put in a lot of hours to make CVN-65 available in all sorts of weird scales to accommodate the requests (1400, 1800, 3000). Once I got the meshes to work about 3 months ago I notified everyone who sent me the requests. Out of all of them, to date, I've had one sale. And it was from the most patient of the requestors.

User avatar
Griffworks
Can-Do Captain
Can-Do Captain
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:57 am
Location: Boundaries of Imagination

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Griffworks » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:36 pm

With respect, there’s a bunch more kits in 1/1400 than in 1/1000, so I’m not sure how 1400 is “orphaned”, exactly. Thumbing thru the Starcraft Models Catalog alone, there are 38 kits from the Prime ‘Verse, another 6 from the Kelvin ‘Verse. Plus, another 7 or 8 available via Federation Models, as well as a handful of kits from MultiVerse Models. I’ve not looked over it all and done a dedicated count, tho I’d wager it’s well over 50 kits - both full and conversion. Especially when you add in the OOP kits from Ravenstar Studios - many of which will again, eventually, be available from MultiVerse Models.

I’m sure Dennis has more kits in 1400 scale planned out. There are still non-canon ships that are likely to sell well, such as the Abbe-class PT Destroyer, TMP Era Federation-class DN, Decatur and Belknap, Andor, Baker, Chandley, etc... and some other canon ships like the Regula One station, ENT Andorian cruiser, Tellarite, Xindi, etc... Still plenty of subjects that, in theory, will eventually be produced.
“And I looked, and behold a pale horse; and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.“

My Flickr Albums

Kratok
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Posts: 629
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Kratok » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:44 pm

Apologies. I was not clear, and did not mean to step on anyone's toes.

Alternate Paradigms, I do understand the challenges and financial risks associated with upscaling a project. And the lack of consumer follow-through despite early interest is a well known problem in the GK industry. I acknowledge that it plays a role here, so read on.

Griff, I know how much you are into 1000 scale, and some of what you have shown here is inspirational. I plan to copy some of it. 1000 is a wide open field, with available kits having only touched the surface. There are lots of future subjects for GK'ers to choose from (with some limitations in my eyes- again, read on). Detail is the best in 1:1000, and you can go really crazy making that additional level of detail shine. I do understand why this scale is growing in popularity. I do.

Again, I was not intentionally slighting anyone, or slamming either 2500 or 1000. Both have strengths (and weaknesses). So does 1400. I am not going to further risk offending anyone by using names. But I clearly need to clarify my "orphaned" comment.

I think we can agree that there are a lot of exciting new kits that are coming to market. Almost ALL of them are either 2500 or 1000. I can think if only three people that are still releasing anything in 1400 (I'm not saying there aren't more if you know of others), and the "new-offering 1400 cistern" has been fairly dry for a while (especially so when compared to other scales). Maybe more releases are in the works - I have not heard anything, though.

So, yes, Jeff- in that context 1400 has been somewhat "orphaned" - i.e., when new releases are upscaled to 1000, but 1400 is omitted. Actually, the historically large selection in 1400 that you pointed out actually helps make the point for me. 1400 was "the" larger scale for years. 2500 now greatly exceeds it in terms of selection. But if you want the largest possible breadth of starship classes and eras to model in a larger detailed scale, 1400 still has the most to offer. And possibly always will, at least for larger capital ships from TNG or beyond. We might get a (Hero status, well known and therefore worth the financial risk?) 1:1000 Galaxy OR Sovereign, but I dont see us ever getting both. And more obscure ships like the Prometheus? DKora? Even the better known Ambassador or Vor'cha are (I think) beyond the size that PL might consider doing. Could be done in resin, but the cost would put it out of the range of a large number of modelers. Not to mention the display space requirements.

So, again, to choose to skip an established segment of the modeling community and omit 1400 from your lineup is confusing to me. At least for grown masters - handcrafted old-school masters are another beast altogether. But if you are willing to accept the financial risks to upscale a grown master to 1000, and the costs for 1400 upscale would be less, then why would you not offer that option? There are a LOT of us who have too much invested to switch scales at this point. I'd just like the option to throw my money at some of these newer manufacturers and offerings along with the rest of my 1000 scale brethren. That's all. Really.

Happy modeling.

User avatar
Del
Starship Engineer
Starship Engineer
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:37 pm
Location: Lawton, Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Del » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:20 am

Kratok wrote:Apologies. I was not clear, and did not mean to step on anyone's toes.
No worries at all. I completely agree with you. The 1/1400 market was flooded with kits early on because it was the prefect size to get the entire fleet on one shelf and still provide a lot of detail, and frankly that's still true even today. Although 1/1000 is now more popular, I doubt that it will ever allow folks to build an entire fleet due to the size of the later ships. Alas, I do feel as though 1/1400 will still eventually peter out though.
Last edited by Del on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Multi-Verse Models - http://www.mvmodels.biz or find me on Facebook
Producing kits previously sold thru Ravenstar, Novahobbies, Fantastic Plastic, NorthTrek Creations, and more!

User avatar
Alternate Paradigms
Lemme At Em Lieutenant
Lemme At Em Lieutenant
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Alternate Paradigms » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:07 am

Kratok wrote:Apologies. I was not clear, and did not mean to step on anyone's toes.
I didn't take your post in any negative way at all. The intent behind my post was only to explain to that upsizing a mesh, while easier than hand-crafted masters, has its own challenges. I would love to offer everything from my line in larger scales. Del & I have certainly discussed it. But as an upstart who has to put money upfront to pay for the masters, though, I have to be cautious. A larger master costs a lot more than double to print (because it would be 3 times the volume of material than a 2500 master). It's a business decision for me, that is all.

Kratok
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Perhaps today IS a good day to model
Posts: 629
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by Kratok » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:34 am

Del wrote:Alas, I do feel as though 1/1400 will still eventually peter out though.
Of course. Eventually, the well of subjects from which we can pull will run dry. For any scale. I just love 1400, and think there is still life in the old girl.

Still need me a 1:1400 Negh'Var, for instance. ;)

kobayashimaru
Can-Do Captain
Can-Do Captain
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:21 pm

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by kobayashimaru » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:03 am

thanks for spinning this off into its own tangent outright, Kratok,
a great hypothetical as ever.

I likewise ponder why 'the sacred scale' ~1:2500 and 1:72 scale,
are such popular scale ballparks for models.
it's a universally popular scale for many subjects, and it's not necessarily because
the conversion charts etc are easier.
it's something like the Drake-Fermi paradox, as you might expect the larger scales to be more popular.
they started off fairly popular (tabletop composite figures used to be ~1:18 etc)
and over time its settled to 1:72 being more popular.

1:1400, 1:350 and closer to "1:1" :lol:
seem to have fewer options. I think it's due to logistics - not just in freight and materiel to complete the model to the level of finish, though in the moving from one place to another etc.
so, the traditional percept is that this is 'museum only'/'ultra-fans only', which is unfortunate.
I like the larger scales as much more detail can be crammed onto it.
Props, the 1:1 costumes and infomechatronics/bots, that's cool stuff,
so it's popular for Wars or Who to make an R-bot or a Dwarhlek,
yet... much rarer for Trek fans to make trek costumes etc.

Conversely, in 1:4848 'gaming tabletop scale",
there are many options, and to the 'diminutive' 1:10 000 'squadron crowd'
that like the ultra-tiny, there's even more options there again :D
we're spoiled for choice in the tabletop end of town.
not only that, the smaller scale means that turnaround time per model is greater,
so hence that feeling of 'eudaimonia'/'accomplishment' or 'zen' is greater,
which in some miniatures, sees the modelmaker crowd being more productive over a longer time span.

I do recommend that folks, if they hit 'artist block'/'project development heck',
then, they can cut and take a break in gaming scale, 're-energize' from the accomplishment
and come back to their primary projects re-charged

TonyG2
Legendary LT Commander
Legendary LT Commander
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:42 am
Location: Steel City UK

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by TonyG2 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:56 am

My scale interests are all over the place! I try to focus on

Aircraft - mainly 1/144 with a few 1/72
AFVs - 1/72 and 1/144
Figures - 1/72 mainly plus a few specialist at 1/20 to go with the Maschienen Krieger/SF3D models
Ships/Subs - 1/72 (limited numbers, mainly MTB/Patrol Boats), 1/144 (subs and a few surface ships), 1/350, 1/700 and 1/1200 & 1/1250

For SF generally, its take what you can get! If they fit with, say, 1/144 then all well and good. If not then its a case of getting the subject I want and not being overly concerned about the scale. I suspect that the bulk of my non Trek kit stash are so varied that they are "non scale", a decent example being the Bandai "Mecha Colle" series of kits. Series such as Space Battleship Yamato also have been getting some consistent releases from Bandai in 1/1000 as has Macross in 1/72 (plusa few in 1/144). Gundam has always had a focus of 1/144 for the mobile suits and 1/1700 for ships. Apart from Fine Molds and Bandai ranges, the Star Wars kits seem to be anything goes when it comes to scale especially when it comes to Revell's releases.

As for Trek, well I like fleet building and my focus is on 1/2500 generally with a secondary interest in 1/1000 for the TOS/TMP era ships. 1/2500 offers a good compromise between choice, detail and size. Yes I have a few AMT kits in 1/1400 such as the Ent D etc but its never been a preferred scale and I would generally look for or wait for a model in 2500 or 1000. I have never had much success with gaming scale models and the closest I have come to such models have been the old Games Workshop Gothic Fleet miniatures.

That being said I have been collecting the Eaglemoss range of models which again are all over the place when it comes to scale although they can be loosely grouped into roughly comparable scales if you are not too worried (so, maybe display 1/900 to 1/1300 together, 1/2200 to 1/2600 together etc....

User avatar
RogueWolf
Resolute Rear Admiral (UH)
Resolute Rear Admiral (UH)
Posts: 2411
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:49 pm
Location: NL, Canada

Re: A discussion of model scales

Post by RogueWolf » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Back to the under represented Borg, the problem with the Borg is the sheer size of their ships. In my 'verse, the Borg have learned to adapt to the Federations tactics, they have had enough of 'death from a thousand stings' that the federation seem to always seams to inflict on them.

Basically Bigger is not always Better. So they have turned away from their Massive Cubes and Spheres and gone to massive fleets of smaller ships. they have learned not to put all their eggs in one basket, or in this case, cube.

With that thought in mind, I have been looking at offering smaller cubes (4x4x4) to start. Maybe a basic cube and a tactical cube. I got some stuff worked up on my bench, but I don't feel that the 2500 scale modellers have enough interest in the Borg.

In the grand scheme of things I'd like to release at least 4 kits of the following races:

Romulan (2 so far, 1 on the bench)
Dominion (1 so far)
Klingon (1 on the bench)
Vulcan (1 finished, 1 on the bench)
Ferengi (1 so far, 3 on the bench)
Cardassian (2 on the bench)
Borg (2 or 3 in development)
Check out my NorthTrek Creations kits at:
http://www.mvmodels.biz/northtrek.asp
Valar Morghulis

Post Reply

Return to “General Trek”