So, Trump. What now?

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So, Trump. What now?

Postby NCC1966 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:36 pm

Although along the last months I have heard that no one of the two main candidates were a reasonable choice Hilary seemed to be a balanced person while Trump had all that crazy and scary approach. But regardless anything America elected Trump. What are the expectations of you Americans with your new President?

This morning I read an article saying that there is a big chance that all the Trump discourse show up as being empty. As per this article there are indications that he was just an strategy of the Republicans to get the control back from the hands of the Democrats. Still it says that probably he will install a conservative government doing nothing he promised/menaced (specially the crazy things) and be just a Republican's party puppet.

One thing that puzzled me was that regardless all his discourse about the protectionism for the American workers the elite votes (and not the labor class ones) were decisive for his victory. I think very hard to evaluate things when news are so "filtered"...

What do you think about all of this?



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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby Moongrim » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:02 pm

I feel that many of us in the United States will go the way that so many did in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's.

Under Obamacare, my special needs daughter's lifesaving medical care costs were allowed to continue under my medical insurance.
Trump and the Republicans have vowed to eliminate Obamacare.

In short- I will probably get to watch her die because of a lack of medical coverage. This is what Compassionate Conservatism has to offer.
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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby RogueWolf » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Trump in 2016, paving the way for Kanya West in 2020.
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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby slawton » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:12 pm

A political thread may not be a good idea for this site, but I will add my take on the subject (no intention to offend anyone, just IMHO)...

I am in shock! I am completely surprised and very concerned about his presidency. I presume the voting reflects dissatisfaction with our leadership in Washington, dislike for Hillary Clinton and/or seeing Donald Trump as an agent of change to help those that have suffered at the hands of the elites/those in power. I am a white, college-educated Republican from Florida and I would not vote for Trump and assumed most people would have a similar opinion (as what most of the rest of the world appear to believe). I was in disbelief for the Republican primaries, then disappointed/ashamed of my party, then individual members backing Trump after seeing his true colors. Now, disappointed and embarrassed with my country men & women.

I believe Mr. Trump suffers from mental disorders including narcissism, psychopathy and mania, as well as some conditioning associated with fame & money. He has a false positive image of himself (self-deluding, taking credit for things he didn't do, viewing his duped investors, contractors, customers, etc. as if he was doing them a favor, etc.) causing him to react irrationally to criticisms/pointing out of his flaws ("Wrath of Trump", fixation, insults, bullying, lawsuits, etc.). Combine this with his disregard for rules and I fear he will abuse his power to illegally/immorally punish his opponents or manipulate women as sex objects. He can also be easily manipulated by those that reinforce his positive self-image (Putin recognizes this fact!). He repeatedly demonstrated that he does not care about others, only himself. I don't understand why his voters believe otherwise -- he is not going to work for them or their benefit. He views others as lesser than "The Trump" (in order to inflate his self-image). His foolish/half-baked policies are detrimental to most Americans and lack substance. He is insincere. His word has no value - he lacks integrity, courtesy and self-control. He lies and misrepresents almost everything. I do not see him as very intelligent and he does not have the discipline to perform the due diligence to solve any real problems. I've known people like him -- they self-destruct and take others with them in a scorched-Earth policy (happily watching Rome burn). He's what I see as part of the problem (from our parasitic, uncaring businesses) that needs to be fixed (although our political leadership disproportionally serves "special interests" over the general public).

So in my view, we elected a sex offender, tax cheat, immoral, arrogant, childish, selfish, shallow, sexist, racist, swindling, business failing, petty, pompous, lying, class-less, vulgar bully -- just an ugly, ugly person. I believe that he will burn bridges with other nations and American leaders (its "my way or the highway"). I predict a bankrupted, erratic America that loses all credibility with lots of political drama. I can only hope that he is "reigned in" by more sane advisors, leaves the work in more capable hands and/or that some of his changes may actually improve things, but I'm not holding my breath.

PS: This electoral college, state votes, etc. seems wrong to me. Being in Florida, a battleground state, we get special treatment. Other states that are traditionally Republican/Democrat (like Wisconsin) are largely ignored. I believe it should be the combined popular vote so everyone's vote counts equally. This is normally unnecessary, but it would have made Hillary the victor this year (and Gore in 2004). Its not sour grapes, its what I see as fair. Also, the gerrymandering of districts and the unbridled flow of campaign money (with its implied "strings attached") are 2 major issues affecting politics in America. Stepping off soap-box now...
Last edited by slawton on Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby Steam235 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:26 pm

I plan on just visiting scale model forums for a bit, take a break from political discussion kinda let things settle down and let the emotions settle a bit before going forward.

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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby NCC1966 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:02 pm

I didn't plan to boil the water. As a foreigner I am just curious about what natives think about their own elections and political surprises. So you won't alone in the boat. Here in Brasil we aren't having a good time either. A couple months ago our Mam. President suffered an unfair impeachment and now we have a dick in the chair. We are watching a lot of shame, corruption, immorality and bad usage of public money. They are at this moment voting amendments for the Constitution to allow a severe cut in the public budget; so our police, health and education that is already weak will receive a strong punch. At the same time they are wasting a lot of cash with unnecessary stuff...


I found this in IG today:


It's a bad Brazilian slang phrase that means "We are together... Things went wrong here too!"



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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby RogueWolf » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:11 pm

I believe that all things being as they are, Americans felt that they needed change, Trump was voted in to bring about this change.

I don't like him but I'm not American so I guess you can say my opinion doesn't count. I do hope that he does something right for the American people though, I have a lot of friends in the US and I only wish them good.
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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby kobayashimaru » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:01 pm

my trek friend, what a great topic for an off topic thread!
forgive me for sharing a novel here.
this topic is very complicated.
foreign relations, supra-national macro futures and diplomacy are
very tricky things. :lol:

there is so much going on in this past 18months and for the next 2 years.

short version -
more of the same, people adjust, and people will be realizing some limits to
egalite and how folks think. value propositions and ERoEI/RoI become more important factors
in choice making.
its a "new new deal"
'act local - think global'

4 years, and its the next president.
4 more, and so on...
and if its a hung parliament or with infighting and civil disturbance,
there'd be even less external engagement.

long version;
who knows what the futures may hold?
surely, places such as IIASA, WFSF, GII, IEEE etc
they don't quite know hehe :lol:

things may be teotwawki, seneca cliff, olduvai theory in the long run;
anyone who has read Al Bartlett's "essential exponential!" or M K Hubbert or S Michaux,
or CASSE etc, anyone who can do math, knows a limit framework to things...

this anthropocene scenario impacts all people,
Everybody's' GDP and PPP is declining, populations increasing and longevity,
hence a QUANDri and smaller share, increased competition and scarcity etc...
and we are all living through
the great depression mk 2, at the same time as we have unprecedented rates of change and innovation...
everybody has to compete with everyone else - this is known as 'contagion'/'labormarket-zugzwange"
yet our responses needn't be solely one or the other...
though who knows what eutopic futures can be realized.

I don't go in for eschatology -
be that of a spiritualist variety, or a secularist kind.
whatever floateth the boateth and all, though it floateth not mine :lol:
"we've nothing to fear but fear itself" - some famous person. :lol:
"fear is the mind-killer" - a DUNE quote. :D
"fear is the beginning of shadow boxing, of fighting percepts and chasing ghosts which may, or may not, be there" -
Zubrin, and G Santayana...
I prefer models and frameworks, and science as an approach.
It's the borg in me :borg:

allow me to speak geopol for a moment -
when I say "hobsons' choice", you have a similar saying in your language,
which means "choose any you like, as long as it is this one" - though, it has certain connotations hehe
that is what this was... ostensibly.
"whoever wins, we lose".

so many constraints are inherent to the position,
the result, from a compatibilist point of view, of many years of compounding choices...
watch as the executive branch schools the legislative,
and the kritarchy continues...
rather, it is who wins 7 of the 13 odd "games that people play" simultaneously,
who earns the right to be blamed for everything that goes wrong,
and take credit for standing by as other people work hard to realize awesome things...

as to Mexico and other foreign relations;
many mexican friends are very happy and optimistic to hear of such results.
even some friends from el salvidor, guam, argentina, ecuador and peru were reasonably 'happy' about things.
friends from brunei, nicaragua, venezuela and uraguay were decidedly less happy or optimistic -
and I realize its only a handful of people from each, though its a very broad spread in terms of backgrounds and life paths.

the north of mexico has long been a no-persons' land...
Mexican people cannot enjoy their awesome country, to the fullest extent -
there have been incursions both ways - 'fast and furious', a market for things etc...
it has been a lamentable problem.
who can blame, when average YTD per capita earnings are ~3000USD on one side of a line,
and ~20-30K USD on the other side of a line...

Mexico will make itself great, -
and this will undercut any potential for
other factors to exploit a gap.
Mexico will realize this greatness in a mexican way, and not an
"end of history" imposed manner... in its own time, on its own terms.
though, neither can afford to sit by and do nothing about it, as the people of both nations are concerned of
what could be happening there.

mexico oughta be proud at her future prospects - she will be part of BRICS or indeed a different bloc all together.
mexico is transitioning to a type 1 economy and is a type 2 presently on the GCR.
(that is more than the futures prospects other type 2's can aspire to, such as where I am writing from at this time...
a type 2 barely, that could have become a type 1 republic, but decided to squable and base its models on other places... it will be lucky to be a type 3 in 2050)
mexico has ~1/8th of the worlds phosphorous reserves, a key and scarce resource, not to mention
extensive LPG reserves, and rare-earth minerals which will make her a great exporter.

Mexico and America make an awesome team.
They have for a long time, and I think they'll be an awesome team for a long while.
it is in mutual beneficial interest to have the exchange of goods and labor and people.
I cannot think of a world where, they do not have amicable or friendly relations.

I found the whole exchange between candidate trump and president of mexico, lamentable,
because neither side was looking for a win-win.
"i want a wall" "we ain't
I don't see an ambiguous 'war on terror' incursion happening without an invitation from mexico,
for a very well-defined time period, with a withdrawal on-time. garrisons, with a view to permanent presence,
how is that any different than what was going to happen to Paul Revere so long ago?
and as observers, others in the G15 and G8 will ensure no stupid antics happen.
there is a fine line for interventions...

no-one forgets what happens, in
pakistan, puerto rico, japan, nicaragua , venezuela, countries starting with 'ira-", afghanistan...
all of those, being very complex things,
though J Diamond and S Sand provide a concise summary.
Sovereignty as balanced against competing relations... that is a tricky thing, of tricky things.
the realists fear 'if we don't, they can do anything we could, and who can stop them?"

(we've gotta also remember, guam, malyasia emergency, nam, and korea;
those were ostensibly under R2Prevent actions outright... it isn't always flimsy unilateral realpolitik)

that's just it.
there are 212 nationstate (at time of writing) on earth,
all of them vie for futures in some way or form.
all do it. its that way in which those futures are arrived at which is important.

I think,
despite it looking like Harlan Ellison, Issac Asimov and Gene Roddenbury futures
(and, as folks such as tf00t humorously note, the striking parallels to the simpsons and idiocracy)
might eventuate...
innovation will keep that can kicking on down the road,
just a little longer.
history will either swerve toward eutopic outcomes,
or humanity will find a definitive answer to the Fermi-Drake Paradox.

We'll get more awesome comedy on SNL,
america will 'fade', somewhat, not as a monopolar power,
but now as a multipolar world. and BRICS will rise more, as A Etzioni and
Johns Hopkins futures symposia models...
MADD is always at the back of mind, but astromining and new technologies
within the UNCLOS frameworks... I think it'll be close,
but we can do it.

We'll overcome this - the anthropocene - and in a win-win way,
which is in keeping with our values.
If folks putsch for win-loss... that's when it gets difficult.

We have the net now, easier travel -
folks have friends worldwide, and bilateral private relationships and trade,
are far more than in the past.
I'll be damned if we waste another century,
having stupid wars over squiggles on a page,
"the map that is not the territory".

And, it needn't be in an effacing way --
rather, in a 'dignity of difference' (J Sacks) realised,
instead of cosmopolitanism imposed,
globans or nwo'ers forcing their view via realpolitik...
how is that any different to the rhyme of history
that realists have offered since day dot?
We all come from "the pale blue dot",
though it is our differences which are awesome.
It is not a duplication of efforts to have those separate identities.
and, there is no reason why, those identities have to be antithetical to
holding a macro-identity concurrently with a pastiche of other ones...
- we're all earthlings, no-one has to tell us as much,
and if we're free or fulfilling our other identities, no-one ought.
that is the prime directive - sovereignty.

I could waffle a LOT more about these kinds of things,
this is already an essay - that's how complicated all this stuff is.
though, that's a story for another time (Michael Ende quote hehehe).

I look forward to hearing what other folks think,
and can't help but note an WFSF bot indexing this thread hehe

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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby trekriffic » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:37 pm

I wish I still drank... :blownup:
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Re: So, Trump. What now?

Postby Greyryder » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:03 am

Moongrim wrote:I feel that many of us in the United States will go the way that so many did in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's.

Under Obamacare, my special needs daughter's lifesaving medical care costs were allowed to continue under my medical insurance.
Trump and the Republicans have vowed to eliminate Obamacare.

In short- I will probably get to watch her die because of a lack of medical coverage. This is what Compassionate Conservatism has to offer.

I don't know about Trump's plans, but the GOP in general, don't want to take care away from people like your daughter. They just want to reverse the damage that's been done to so many other people. A lot of people have found themselves paying more, to get less health care, because of Obamacare.

The Republicans have been trying to keep the better parts of Obamacare, and get rid of the problem areas. For the vast majority of people, healthcare prices have gone up. I know at least one person who has been forced to turn to the gray market to get the life saving medicine that he needs, because he can no longer afford it, under Obamacare. I know a woman, who's son's teeth are so badly crowded, it's causing him severe pain. The braces he needs are going to cost thousands of dollars her family doesn't have, because Obamacare won't cover it.

For the record, I have asthma, that is becoming increasingly difficult to control. Without medicine, I'm dead. I am no fan, of what the Democrats have passed off as health care reform.

Though, I am curious. You said her care was allowed to continue under Obamacare. So, you were able to ger her this care, before the "reform?" Why would it suddenly stop, if that reform was repealed?

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