How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

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Xen
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How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby Xen » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:57 am

...or so certain individuals would have us believe. What am I going on about? I'm glad you asked. ;)

It started with a harmless, private conversation with another member of AST. He jokingly remarked that within some circles AST is viewed as a little "too nice" and "cosy" (I'm paraphrasing to avoid the ugliness originally quoted, but you get the general idea), in both how members compliment the work of others and the "mutual respect" shown during debates. Apparently, folks in other circles view that as wrong. In a way, being fake.

I only know a few of the community here personally. The rest I know loosely from general internet chatter. They're "good people". Veterans of the hobby, smarter than -this- average bear and usually not short of an opinion. There is nothing fake about what they say, or indeed what positives the rest of the community add. I think, on the whole, folks get quite well balanced feedback, regardless of the topic. Quality and quantity in some cases.

AST is a "collective" of newbies, "intermediates", veterans and maybe even a few "experts", that all happen to like/love Trek. Consequently, opinions will differ, yet somehow we all seem to get our points across without a major blow up. AST finds that "Goldilocks zone". The happy medium, avoiding the drama that is frankly just about everywhere these days. I personally enjoy my time here because of that, but also because I learn a lot from you guys and gals.

It's easy to start a mosh pit, with the rules that go along with such an environment. It's not so easy to do what AST does. We have somehow amassed a great crowd, sharing all kinds of experiences, all with unique styles, without any real mod intervention and a simple set of rules.

So, being "nice", certainly the "AST way" isn't a bad thing at all. In my opinion it's the only way to break free from the stigma associated with social "hangouts" over the last 20 years. As long as we keep attracting folks, wanting to join in on the fun, I remain convinced that AST has the right philosophy.

One last thing (I may have mentioned this before, but it's a heartwarming thought during some dark times for me). I founded AST (with a little help from my friends), added some basic rules (e.g. be nice) and launched the site. Beyond the 2 month mark of going live I no longer had the time to invest in promoting AST and relied on word of mouth. I managed to run a few "events", do some reviews, but that was basically it.

AST could've ended up with the same numbers stats-wise, but with a completely different vibe. Just like most forums really. It didn't though. Somehow, without mod intervention, the community has created a really great place to visit. That's nothing I did. That's all down to you. Thank you for that. :vulcan:

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby Greyryder » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:32 pm

Xen wrote:It started with a harmless, private conversation with another member of AST. He jokingly remarked that within some circles AST is viewed as a little "too nice" and "cosy" (I'm paraphrasing to avoid the ugliness originally quoted, but you get the general idea), in both how members compliment the work of others and the "mutual respect" shown during debates. Apparently, folks in other circles view that as wrong. In a way, being fake.


If behaving like mature adults, and not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet is fake, then I don't want to be real. 8-)

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby Steam235 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:35 pm

Yes, I know the boards that those people speak of. If I were on those boards my Stargazer and current cutaway would be hammered. The kindness and encouragement from this board has really been a factor in trying those projects.

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby DefiantClient » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:00 pm

I'm going to go slightly against the grain here.

I've been a little hesitant to give constructive criticism here on AST because of a certain vibe I've gotten that the criticism wouldn't be taken very well, regardless of how I word it. If something has a slapdash paintjob, I'm not sure how to approach the subject without insinuating they didn't do a great job on it, though they probably put in a lot of effort on their end. I'm not saying it is a bad thing entirely, I'm glad people have a place here where they can post whatever they want and not be judged too harshly. However, this hesitation makes me feel like I am unable to help some people without it being taking it the wrong way and others possibly also taking it the wrong way and jump down my throat about being unfair. Hell, I've already had people take things I've said a little harsher than I intended them when posting here, though it tends to be more when I joke around and not necessarily criticism. The subjective nature of humor mixed with tone not being conveyed well through text makes that understandable though.

I definitely see your point that AST is a safe place, especially for newbies but my hesitation to not step on too many toes makes me not as critical while posting, which could help a person who may not even be aware that a particular flaw would be an easy fix. People are very sensitive to criticism, even when it's constructive. I know first hand suppressing that knee jerk rage I've gotten when people criticized some of my work. I look to see if they added any way I could improve on what I did. Sometimes it takes a little while to realize it's there, but I ultimately am grateful for the constructive criticism I've gotten when I was a noob. I remember someone pointing out the silvering on my decals on a model a long time ago. Once I got past them pointing out the flaw, I took the constructive part of the criticism (paraphrasing: silvering distracts from the rest of the model and makes it look like a sticker. Use a gloss coat and decal softener next time) and put it to work on future projects.

I actually have no clue what other forums you guys are referring to where your work would be torn apart, but I've been hesitant like this on a lot of the old forums from back in the early 00's (CultTVman, Starshipmodeler, etc.). Are the prop forum guys nitpicking all your work because it's not perfect television standard? Those places can be newbie friendly if you can sift through the people not being constructive. Steam, I think your work is pretty good, not that mine is any better. I remember your Stargazer and Enterprise fondly. Your cutaway is just... I can't believe you're taking on that project. TONS of praise for that alone should be given.

Basically, I'd love to say; "I like what you did here, but 'this', 'this', and 'this' could use some improvement. Here's how I've done it or would do it." I feel like people only give this type of advice on AST if it's asked for and that is where I'm hesitant. If someone doesn't ask about it, how will they know it could be the flaw that may be easily remedied? Maybe someone can explain why this view I have isn't the case and I'm just being kind of paranoid? Posting this is actually making me nervous since I really don't want to rustle feathers here. I do love this forum and its community of very talented modelers.

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby MEATLOAFr » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:21 am

the fact some of the members even chime in says a lot for how nice a community it is here

It can get ugly sometimes on other sites... but that's why I don't talk much there
If the world ends tomorrow, it's ALL YOUR FAULT!!!

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby cannon fodder » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:42 am

I dont chime in much since my post about round 2 reissuing the 1/537 refit. I was basically made to feel like my idea was dumb since they have the 1/350 refit and the 1/1000. I talk to a lot of. People on facebook and they agree, the 1/350 is too big and the 1/1000 is too small for most. And you can look at ebay, they sell all the time but i digress. I just dropped the subject and became basically a lurker. Its a shame since i really like ast. Just my two cent worth which isnt much.

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby zymurgeist » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:00 am

Sugar with the medicine. It's okay to say something needs improvement but if you do suggest ways to make it better and compliment the things that are well done. Take the time to use words that indicate when something is an opinion. It's not always easy to tell if you're giving your impressions or speaking in absolutes from the written word. "Everything after TOS sucks" is very different from "I don't care for things after TOS."

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby cannon fodder » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:11 am

Not abou medicine, i was just hoping as well as others that reat round 2 would restart the 1/537 line but was basically told it would never happen. And seeing as how round 2 has a good relationship with ast i was hoping to be heard. Since someone so matter of fact said it would be too expensive and not worthwhile. Shame. I think more feel the way i do but dont post much anymore.

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby kobayashimaru » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:52 am

well said all-
this will be an interesting ongoing open topic :borg: , even if it's a little 'meta' for me in parts
(talking trek about trek)
Certainly, that candid aspect to AST is what keeps me trekkin - (that and the eyecandy).
AST has something for everyone, from 8 to 88, all level of skill and points in 'the hobby'. :D

people speak their minds, and share all kinds of stuff, from all around the world.
that is what it is :D
a lot of people want to improve in some way at whatever they do, feedback is a way in which to achieve that.
it can be a signal, a boost, a perspective - and whatever gets that project looking the way you envisaged it (or, that 'accidental awesome" that sometimes happens partway through a project)
To list but a few 'pros'; Different sketches I've never seen before, chats about all kinds of topics, techniques for making models/miniatures/"things"... and even hints on where and when to buy models or tools when folks see models and tools on sale. :D
trading is also AWESOME

For a lot of things in life, 'we knows it when we sees it", and its especially true for trek things.
- if folks like something, at AST they say a little about the why,
and that's the kind of feedback that's handy for the next project or to improve.
It's that "beyond- why?" factor, that's the awesome.
Feedback is 'reams' compared to elsewhere... you get more feedback, and broad feedback.
It might read as a little 'formulaic', though I want to know the ins and outs of the project - why'd the colour end up as we see in the final image? how'd you achieve that effect? where do you think you'd improve on the next one if you were to build a similar thing again? Is there a time limit or some other constraint which increases the awesome?
(similar to a speed-build or speed-paint in other aspects of the hobby)

conversely
if folks don't like something, they use the concrit style,
and say why,
with multiple modes of communication (usually some pictures, mud sketches and concepts sketches, for those of us who think in pictures): and folks will let you know directly
what didn't quite work out as envisaged, or their subjective take on things.
Feedback is AWESOME - even if it's to observe how projects haven't met the envisaged picture, or what can be improved on the next build (because, there's always the next build :D ).
it's that "why" factor that keeps cropping up again.
Even, if it's critical feedback, folks have the decency and maturity to use the PM system or other methods, to avoid textrage etc... there's ways of saying things, and ways of saying things... and folks at AST get that difference.

the way I see things (having a screen name based upon an unwinnable scenario Kirk doesn't believe in...)
it wouldn't be freethinking, if you werent free to think :D ,
luckily, the code/guide at AST is quite informal,
and there's only a 'few lines in the sand' which'd be no-nos.
having different perspectives on things sure is useful; even if it's not immediately apparent.
I don't know about others, but I learn the most from
new things and respectful disagreements/differings of opinion.

I could waffle for ages about these kinds of food-for-thought topics :lol:
it'll be great to see what other folks think about this topic,

hopefully,
AST continues to be a place that folks want to share their trek, their sci fi
and models galore!

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Re: How being "nice" to others is a bad thing...

Postby DefiantClient » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:34 pm

cannon fodder wrote:Not abou medicine, i was just hoping as well as others that reat round 2 would restart the 1/537 line but was basically told it would never happen. And seeing as how round 2 has a good relationship with ast i was hoping to be heard. Since someone so matter of fact said it would be too expensive and not worthwhile. Shame. I think more feel the way i do but dont post much anymore.


But they were pointing out that the 1/537 kit would be the most expensive retooled kit in their line to produce on their end in its current state and wouldn't be practical, not that the idea is dumb. I would LOVE to have a 1/537 refit reissue, especially if it's smooth, but the point people were trying to make was, maybe it could happen, but realistically it probably won't. I dunno, maybe someone was being a !!!!!!!! in that thread, I can barely rember it, though I vaugely remember posting in it. But I feel like I wasn't trying to make your idea sound dumb. Bad ideas and impractical ideas from a company that is looking at their bottom dollar are not the same. I also think they would rather brand their own, more accurate versions of the TOS movie Enterprise. All this is speculation, too. I'll eat my hat if one day I see the announcement.

My point to all this is that it is a shame that you feel like you cannot post much here because people are being mean by your perspective, but remember everyone has a different view. From my view, I have to hold back thoughts that I feel are valid because someone here will misread those intentions. This is a Kobayashi Maru situation.


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