So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

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el gato
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So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:18 pm

http://www.npr.org/2017/09/07/549250035 ... -destinies

Listened to this interview last night where they discussed "convergent evolution," the concept that different species can independently evolve to have similar traits. The logic is that evolution would optimize certain characteristics across multiple species with genetically different makeup so long as they live in a similar environments. The example they gave is that if you gave an engineer the challenge of designing the most optimum shape to travel efficiently across water you'd have a long sleek body, a dorsal fin for stability, a powerful tail for propulsion and flippers for maneuvering.

That may explain why Star Trek aliens are all bipedal with some bumpy thing on their forehead :lol:
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.

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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:19 pm

And yeah, yeah, I know TNG has an in-universe explanation for everyone's bipedalness
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.

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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby Tesral » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:56 pm

el gato wrote:And yeah, yeah, I know TNG has an in-universe explanation for everyone's bipedalness


They evolved to use the native bicycles found everywhere.

Personally I found the progenitor explanation too pat, and too contrived. On the order of creation myths. Given this result and no facts--make something up. So instead of the primordial unexplained cow licking the primordial unexplained ice to form the giant Ymir, we have progenitors. If that was the case why didn't humanoid bipeds evolve on Earth FIRST? Why all the messing around with the Cambrian period and the dinosaurs and so forth? Get right to the apes. Like ancient astronauts, it flies in the face of fact and fancy. But typical of TNG wider storytelling. Because...reasons.
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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:27 pm

But if you recall, they said the progenitors used whatever was already there. That it would eventually, naturally, lead to a sentient bipedal organism, well so much the better. This would explain both the similarities (two arms, two legs, a head, and just for Kirk, sexual compatibility) but also the differences.

Personally, what bothered me the most was that there were so many technological similarities between the species. I preferred the Babylon 5 approach, where all space-fairing species were all over the place in their tech evolution.
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.

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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby kobayashimaru » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:26 am

yup, good stuff el gato,
now that TNG "The Chase" episode seems even more awesome huh?
a primordial civ from around the time of the Chodak, the Vaduuar and the Guardians etc...

the same idea does exist in computing too -
the theory of "peak innovation"/"combinatorial innovation futures" - ie,
there might only be a limited super-set of possible solutions, based on the babushka nesting in the multivariate -
the RoI doesn't justify the return for the effort etc...
therefore, there might be an absolute tech 'flatline' (see the NSSA and Fenner '15 day 2 conference sidepanel on that).

nPr, nCr, |n^X!|^|n^X!|...
and, that's all just for "at any time t, unique organic/'naturally occurring' lifeforms".
to say nothing of the 'synthetic'/'non-naturally occurring' lifeforms... :D

SETI time. (have you been watching the SETI, SIPI and Planetary Society YT and TEDX vids?)
now, form a theorem and proof of it (take that to the borg level) :borg2:

read this thread
https://biology.stackexchange.com/quest ... binatorics
recalling JL Borges' "Library of Babel" cautionary tale...
then, form a binomial (or, rather nth^nesting multivariate recursive algorithm) and read
the Adam Frank lectures...

then, note the non-standard analysis profile of that curve... :D
QED

-----
that is to say,
in exo-biology/combinatorial theoretical genomics,
that, there is on many levels, a recurrent theme.
C Sagan said in cosmos, while standing near a vat of 'chemicals'... "nature will probably take the simplest path,
and use the universal solvent as a base or core component" :lol:
thats what puts such a bias on the 11D graph and 4D future-curve... nature is fond of K.I.S.S.
it'll probably go with that.
though, new inroads into memristors etc, may also throw a spanner in the works -
if sentience is not directly related to encephalization quotient,
then, there could be many, many more... (thus a rejoinder to Michael of VSauce and Isaac Arthur's vids on that).

-----
but, at the same time,
look at the infinitude that those simple equations produces,
it is uncountably infinite...
what we see, let alone, may ever verifiably encounter
is but a fractionitesimal of all that could ever possibly be.
(perhaps we get a random sample from that mega set...)
we don't even know what edge-homeomorphism etc to infer the extent of the random-set we could encounter...

Darwin, Lasswitz, and Verne thought that, life would probably leave earth,
and that if it survived elsewhere,
then, would over time differentiate and continue...
|so, that would be very interesting, given what we now know of "Panspermia" hypothesis,
and, the post-Theia event 'seeding' of life on earth. multiple olduvais, and, potentially multiple panspermia events...|

I'm still holding out hope that,
we'll find all kinds of 'exotic' based-lifeforms and extremeophilic life eventually,
some which do not use the universal solvent etc.
though, it would be fairly funny if, some animals on other worlds were very similar to the ones found elsewhere (there's a hitchikers joke in there somewhere).

end-rant-digression.
thanks for reading

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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:19 am

That went way over my head, koba :lol:
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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby Tesral » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:47 pm

While I agree that the basic chemistry of life is likely to be similar. That basic chemistry has produced two different blood oxygenation schemes, yes, copper blooded beasts exist. And three basic body forms. cephalopods, arthropods, and vertebrate. And a lot of variation within the three basic categories.. And yes, I am way over simplifying.

When we were growing up our Evil Science teachers (At least mine was) taught us there were two kingdoms of life, animal and vegetable. That is now five kingdoms; animal, plant, bacteria, fungi and slime molds.

The Cambrian period had countless life forms that did not survive the great dying. All arising from the same chemistry of life. Four limbed bipeds are by no means assured. I fall more to the Larry Niven school of aliens. They can be truly alien. And even then I use a lot of bipeds. It feels Star Trek to me.
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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:29 pm

Well, remember that this theory doesn't address the diversity of genetic makeup. It only talks about the evolution of similar traits. So yeah, alien life will truly be alien. Doesn't mean there won't be physical similarities.

I prescribe to the Agent Smith school on intelligent life. Creating intelligent life is expensive for and to nature. Our brain takes up a disproportionate amount of energy to function relative to its mass. That means a lot of resources must be consumed to power those brains. And you have to wonder for what purpose. It's not like we need to be *this* intelligent to survive. In fact, events in the past few months have shown that not everyone is using their brains anyway. Are all of those resources used to feed those brains spent wastefully? I think so. Nature only needs clever for survival, not intelligent. As Agent Smith said in The Matrix, there is only one type of life on Earth that behaves like human beings, and those are viruses.

If we manage to get off this rock, I suspect we'll find a diversity of life vastly greater than we can possibly imagine. Will we find intelligent life, intelligence beyond clever? I doubt it.
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.

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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby Tesral » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:02 pm

Then again it happening once bodes well for it happening again. We are the only life form that lives on every continent and in every environment. The intelligence advantage is flexibility. Two cold, we wear clothing. Not enough water, we dig wells. Too hot, Air Conditioning. We evolve our environment.

Life in the stars will be likewise. When a challenge arises in the environment that requires quick adaption the sophant species will endure.
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Re: So maybe aliens will be humanoid after all

Postby el gato » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:23 am

Migration os another form of adapting to the seasons. It's another example of species being clever but not intelligent. There's an advantage to staying put, but most animals simply go where the climate is comfortable and the food located. Whether that's better is more of a judgment call
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.


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