Intrepid Class and Smaller

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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby MSgtUSAFRet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:46 pm

While I am not clear on how the Navy does things, the Air Force military structure may shed some light.

I am not sure why Sisko was a Commander (O5) of a Starbase. A Base Commander in the Air Force (AF) has always been a Colonel (Officer Rank 6 [O6] = Naval rank/Title “Captain”). He would also be a Senior Colonel in order to have rank and position over the other Colonel’s assigned to various Support functions as provided by the base. The Base Commander may have also been an O7 “Brigadier General” or Naval Rear Admiral Lower Half (RDML,O7). This would be very similar to situation of the Yorktown StarBase in Star Trek: Beyond.

If, as is often the case, a large group with a specific defense/wartime mission was stationed at the base, this large Group, known as a “Wing” in the AF, may also have an O7 as the Commanding Officer, but he would be considered a guest on the Base Commander’s Base and wouldn’t presume to overturn his/her decisions concerning the Operations of the Base. They would work together to ensure the mission was accomplished.

Sometimes the Wing Commander is an O6 and they would have several Group Commanders under their command and each of these Group Commanders would also be senior O6s. In essence, Captains commanding Captains. So yeah, berth is as important as rank.

In another thread, I tried to make a case where a Captain of one particular ship is in a position of authority and precedence over other ship Captains due to the importance of the ship. For example, the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier would be in command of a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) comprised of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers or frigates, and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. The Captain (O6) of the CSG has operational and mission command over the entire CSG.

Kirk, in TOS, would have been one such Captain. His starship was among the elite of the Federation ships (only 12 like her in the fleet!) which only makes his accomplishments that much more notable. Piccard would have been in a similar berth/rank/position. This was clearly shown at the battle of the Borg as shown in “First Contact”. The Admiral in charge of the Attack Force was killed and Piccard, on hearing the news, took operational command of the Fleet; and they let him. Maybe this shows Piccard holding the title and authority of “Fleet Captain”; albeit an honorary title, but a title nonetheless.

Okay, back to the CSG. Some of the Destroyers would have been commanded by Commanders (O5) and the Frigates by Lt. Commanders (O4) yet each boat would have referred to the Commanders as “Captain” denoting their position/berth on the ship, not their actual pay grade/rank. Chekov, in the 2009 Star Trek forgot this reference when Spock gave him a command and Chekhov said, “Aye Commander…ack…”Captain.” Sorry! “Captain.”

But, perhaps, Janeway, as a Captain (O6) and a scientist, was given command of a Voyager, a brand new ship with new technology (gel-packs to make the Mainframe think and react faster than positronic circuits) because she was a scientist, not an O6. Also, while in the Command branch of Star Fleet service, her status as a Scientist on a scientific vessel would make more sense than say, Chakotay, a Commander in the Command service branch and not a trained scientist, to have commanded a science vessel.

So it does depend on the ship and the experiences of the commanding officer as to whether or not they are placed on a Carrier type ship or a scientific vessel.

SKO wrote:Supposedly when they made Sisko a commander at the start of DS9 they were disappointed so many people said he could never be as good as Kirk/Picard because he "wasn't even a captain" and even some people were mad that they made the first black lead of a star trek show the first commanding officer to not be a captain, so they promoted him in Season 3. I would assume that they were afraid of a similar reaction to Janeway if they did something like that.


One final word about Siskso. I know this is long but bear with me. Sisko, as a Commander (O5) was grieving the loss of his wife and disillusioned with Star Fleet in general. Also, the Bajorian space station, had just been liberated and was considered on the outer edges of the known Galaxy. It wasn’t a posting of prestige, position, precedence. Star Fleet, while obligate to send someone, may not have been able to get anyone with any aspirations for advancement to go there and oversee not only the clean-up and the Bajorians, but out of sight of the Admiralty with little chance to get noticed for promotion or advancement. Sisko may have volunteered to go and hideout, grieve, and get away from Star Fleet – and they let him; maybe because he was the highest rank they could get to actually go.

It was only the wormhole, the Prophets, the Klingons, Dominion War and the Borg that caused Star Fleet to notice DS9 and Sisko. And with this notice, they gave him operational command of the Defiant. With all that authority and notice, they HAD to promote Sisko so his rank would be commiserate with his new duties and responsibilities brought on with that section of space and Federation attention.

One more thought - writers, who have no military experience or knowledge, trying to write about a paramilitary organization at best, will get it wrong when it comes to chain of command or rank/requirements driven postings. All they are worried about is creating drama and storylines; not about getting a military-esque command structure. Like writing that a Lieutenant would tell a Captain what they could or couldn't do. It just wouldn't happen in real life.

Just a thought.

LLAP!

Steve

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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby SKO » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:19 pm

Well, and as always whenever something doesn't make real world, US navy sense it is important to remember that its kind of amazing that Starfleet, composed of 190 member species, would resemble the US Navy so closely anyway, so who knows what slight variations it would take.

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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby Tesral » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:28 pm

TonyG2 wrote:

In terms of ship size (as opposed to crew size) the TOS Enterprise and Voyager were about the same. So is it also suggested that the Enterprise should be out there with a Commander in charge not a Captain?


There is the rub. The TOS Enterprise was a heavy cruiser. Clearly a Captain’s berth. The Voyager on the other hand due to technology and size creep was light cruiser.
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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby Tesral » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:35 pm

MSgtUSAFRet wrote:
In another thread, I tried to make a case where a Captain of one particular ship is in a position of authority and precedence over other ship Captains due to the importance of the ship. For example, the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier would be in command of a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) comprised of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers or frigates, and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. The Captain (O6) of the CSG has operational and mission command over the entire CSG.


A carrier strike group will have an Admiral on board. The Captain of the carrier captains the carrier. The island of every carrier has three "Bridges", the Admiral's bridge at the bottom, the Ship's bridge next from which the ship is conned. and the Flight control bridge at the top. The Carrier's control tower.

These days neither the Admiral or the Captain is typically found on the bridge, they are under the flight deck in the Combat Information Center CIC.
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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby SKO » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:45 pm

The other thing I will say is that with Starfleet not being a strictly military organization, most captains also serve as de facto ambassadors, mediators, etc. If you command a federation starship you are officially representing federation interests in a number of categories if you encounter another species. Would make sense that "Captain" signifies not just command of a starship but that you have completed all of the required diplomatic, scientific, and military training necessary to be a self-sufficient federation representative.

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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby MSgtUSAFRet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:50 pm

Tesral wrote:
MSgtUSAFRet wrote:
In another thread, I tried to make a case where a Captain of one particular ship is in a position of authority and precedence over other ship Captains due to the importance of the ship. For example, the Captain of an Aircraft Carrier would be in command of a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) comprised of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers or frigates, and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. The Captain (O6) of the CSG has operational and mission command over the entire CSG.


A carrier strike group will have an Admiral on board. The Captain of the carrier captains the carrier. The island of every carrier has three "Bridges", the Admiral's bridge at the bottom, the Ship's bridge next from which the ship is conned. and the Flight control bridge at the top. The Carrier's control tower.

These days neither the Admiral or the Captain is typically found on the bridge, they are under the flight deck in the Combat Information Center CIC.


Ah! Thanks, Tesral, for correcting me and my assumption. One sister service trying to look into another service! :D

Thanks, again!

Steve

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Re: Intrepid Class and Smaller

Postby MSgtUSAFRet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:52 pm

SKO wrote:The other thing I will say is that with Starfleet not being a strictly military organization, most captains also serve as de facto ambassadors, mediators, etc. If you command a federation starship you are officially representing federation interests in a number of categories if you encounter another species. Would make sense that "Captain" signifies not just command of a starship but that you have completed all of the required diplomatic, scientific, and military training necessary to be a self-sufficient federation representative.


Excellent point, Sir! :D


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