USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

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Tesral
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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby Tesral » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:54 pm

nova1972x wrote:What's wrong with the B? Not my fav Enterprise, but it was fine to me. Is it because it was an Excelsior class? Or the mods to the Excesior class?


I do not like it. Out of scale parts. It looks like it was tossed together at the last minute, no unity of design. Everything right with the refit is wrong with the Excelsior.
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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby Greyryder » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:16 am

Completely unfinished looking design? Yeah, I don't get the love for the excelsior. That said, the sponsons they added to the hull for the Ent B were a nice addition. Couldn't save the rest of the ship, though.

I still say that the boxes they call nacelles on the refit/A don't mesh in the slightest with the rest of the design. Other than that, she's a good looking ship(s).

TOS; refit/A; C; and E are some of the best looking ships in science fiction. The D is a fat guy on a little bike.

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby nova1972x » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:37 pm

Greyryder wrote:Completely unfinished looking design? Yeah, I don't get the love for the excelsior. That said, the sponsons they added to the hull for the Ent B were a nice addition. Couldn't save the rest of the ship, though.

I still say that the boxes they call nacelles on the refit/A don't mesh in the slightest with the rest of the design. Other than that, she's a good looking ship(s).

TOS; refit/A; C; and E are some of the best looking ships in science fiction. The D is a fat guy on a little bike.

Tesral wrote:
nova1972x wrote:What's wrong with the B? Not my fav Enterprise, but it was fine to me. Is it because it was an Excelsior class? Or the mods to the Excesior class?


I do not like it. Out of scale parts. It looks like it was tossed together at the last minute, no unity of design. Everything right with the refit is wrong with the Excelsior.


Well I have to agree with you on one thing: the Enterprise refit/Enterprise-A, for me, is one of the best looking ships in Sci fi. My favorite of all time.

Fair enough on the assessment on the Excelsior. I think originally, the Excelsior was originally intended to be an antagonist ship of sorts in TSFS. It wasn't really intended to be graceful, just the representation of time and technology marching forward. It also represents the Constitution Class, namely the Enterprise, being decommissioned, and the TOS crew feeling their age. But it also represents the TOS crew has experience on their side, and experience trumps technology. So, I think originally, the Excelsior was designed intentionally to make us not like it, which may be why the proportions and scale are out of whack. I think this might be partly why the NCC-2000 version, under Sulu was tweaked a bit.

I also think the changes on the Enterprise-B (I guess it could be called an Excelsior refit?) make a big difference. Changes to the secondary hull, nacelles, additional impulse engines on the saucer, use of lighter blues and grays.

But it still is an Excelsior class, so if one didn't like the Excelsior, I can see how one wouldn't be a fan of the E-B, too.

But, it's not like we didn't know the E-B wouldn't be an Excelsior. If the Enterprise-D observation room with the E-B model relief didn't tease it, the fact that it was stated as the new generation of ship in TSFS did. In fact, I was surprised (and glad, actually...I really liked the Enterprise-Refit) the Enterprise-A wasn't an Excelsior, when I first saw TVH in 1986. I expected Kirk to either get the Excelsior, or an Excelsior class Enterprise. Which we got with the E-B, just delayed 8 years!

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby horridperson » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 am

"Accurate" continuity when retrograding within a franchise that extends 50 years is inevitably going to come into opposition with "modern" conceptions of what is futuristic. The same criticisms were leveled at Enterprise when it debuted. I have aesthetic preferences but aesthetics have to remain relevant to the larger audience; most importantly the potential audience. If I hated the Discovery I would still watch the show because it's Star Trek and I'm happy to see an incarnation of it on television again simply for that. A potential fan with more modern sensibilities might dismiss a purely canon driven conjecture; Our cell phones are smaller and more technically advanced than TOS communicators.

Looking at the most recent adjustments made to the model I really like the classic space station look of the saucer and the hard angles of the hull. There are new and old elements within the design and as someone who likes all Trek there are parts and inspiration drawn from across the franchise. If the characters and storytelling are as interesting I am really looking forward to this.

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby el gato » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:38 pm

horridperson wrote: Our cell phones are smaller and more technically advanced than TOS communicators.


First, welcome to AST! Glad to have you on board. Second, the following relates to the argument put forth, not to you. I don't intend for this to be personal so please don't take it as such. The modern cellphones vs. TOS communicators argument is so specious to me. Rick Berman first used that argument when he received push back on how much more technologically advanced ENT looked in comparison to TOS. Modern, everyday cell phones are not equipped to communicate with anything in orbit, let along farther out in space. The TOS communicators can. One can argue that cell phones look cooler than TOS communicators, but they are certainly not more "advanced," at least not as the tech was portrayed in TOS.

I've grown more philosophical about Star Trek as I grow older. I liken it to Shakespeare. Whether you put the actors in modern clothing or in period costumes, it doesn't matter. Whether it's Shatner playing Kirk or it's Pine, or some other actor, it doesn't matter. Whether the setting is a retro take or a modern take on what the future looks like, it doesn't matter. The play's the thing. And the ships. The ships have to be cool. And the TOS E is still of them all imo
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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby SKO » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:48 pm

el gato wrote:
horridperson wrote: Our cell phones are smaller and more technically advanced than TOS communicators.


First, welcome to AST! Glad to have you on board. Second, the following relates to the argument put forth, not to you. I don't intend for this to be personal so please don't take it as such. The modern cellphones vs. TOS communicators argument is so specious to me. Rick Berman first used that argument when he received push back on how much more technologically advanced ENT looked in comparison to TOS. Modern, everyday cell phones are not equipped to communicate with anything in orbit, let along farther out in space. The TOS communicators can. One can argue that cell phones look cooler than TOS communicators, but they are certainly not more "advanced," at least not as the tech was portrayed in TOS.

I've grown more philosophical about Star Trek as I grow older. I liken it to Shakespeare. Whether you put the actors in modern clothing or in period costumes, it doesn't matter. Whether it's Shatner playing Kirk or it's Pine, or some other actor, it doesn't matter. Whether the setting is a retro take or a modern take on what the future looks like, it doesn't matter. The play's the thing. And the ships. The ships have to be cool. And the TOS E is still of them all imo


This. Another Berman quote was "my laptop looks more advanced than the one on Janeway's desk." Well her computer can literally pull up any file from the entirety of knowledge available to the federation, probably more data than any combination of computers currently on earth could possibly manage. If that laptop ends up looking bulkier and more plain than a 20th century one, oh well.

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby el gato » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:26 pm

SKO wrote:Another Berman quote was "my laptop looks more advanced than the one on Janeway's desk." Well her computer can literally pull up any file from the entirety of knowledge available to the federation, probably more data than any combination of computers currently on earth could possibly manage. If that laptop ends up looking bulkier and more plain than a 20th century one, oh well.


:lol: In the 80s someone told me the computers on Star Trek were stupid because they were bulky and had a 60s look to them. My reply was that smaller doesn't make a thing better or more advanced. An abacus takes up less space but it doesn't mean it can do more than a 60s computer
RogueWolf wrote:I've sacrificed many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of gummy bears to the dark modeling gods to grant me my wish... but I fear my offerings only amuse them, not appease them.

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby Tesral » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:21 pm

I've said this before. Science Fiction is more a reflection of the time it was written than the time it portrays. The Cat is right the play's the thing. We had one young lady on the Trekcrerative list that didn't think Casablanca was a good movie because it was black and while. A shallow viewpoint to be sure.

I am less concerned about the side of the various bits of tech. One also has to consider style and ergonomics. The basic functions of a phone today can be packed into a keyfob, and have been. They are not popular, too small. "Pablets" tried to be a thing several years back, really BIG phones the size of small tablets. They didn't take off either because they were too big for the pocket.

The Enterprise communicator is too small. I have one. The TOS communicator fits nicely in the hand. The communicator pins make sense as an advancement from the hand held.

There is also another factor. What looks good on TV? The reason both the cricket phaser and the TOS phaser 1 dropped off in use was they are too small. Hard to tell that Character X has "visible threat of gun" on a 19' TV. They don't look gun like enough.

Berman is simply demonstrating his basic ignorance of people. Size is not everything.
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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby horridperson » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:24 pm

el gato wrote:First, welcome to AST! Glad to have you on board. Second, the following relates to the argument put forth, not to you. I don't intend for this to be personal so please don't take it as such. The modern cellphones vs. TOS communicators argument is so specious to me. Rick Berman first used that argument when he received push back on how much more technologically advanced ENT looked in comparison to TOS. Modern, everyday cell phones are not equipped to communicate with anything in orbit, let along farther out in space. The TOS communicators can. One can argue that cell phones look cooler than TOS communicators, but they are certainly not more "advanced


Thanks for the welcome. No offense taken. Sometimes I think that Rick Berman wants to hate fans and fans want to hate him. Depending on the context his remarks were taken in they could be conceived as an attack on the visuals of TOS, sadly I think this is a common conception. Enterprise didn't make technology "cooler"than TOS, and a modern cell doesn't have the technological advantages of it`s 23rd century analogue. I propose that the technology of Enterprise became more, "technologically plausible".

The importance of relevance and plausibility extends back to TOS. The Jeffries`Enterprise was designed with caveats that it would not look like the finned rocket ships of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. Roddenberry wanted everything to be believable. The technology of TOS looked futuristic and cutting edge then. They aremain beautiful designs but real world aesthetics have "evolved" beyond them. It's worth mentioning that many modern device owe their forms to Star Trek. A flip phone that made you feel like Captain Kirk is cool, Talking into a wristwatch with a tv on it like Dick Tracy would make you look like a wanker :D so you don't see much of that.

The negativity that I see espoused toward each new incarnation of Star Trek by fellow fans of the earlier shows confuses me. I don't perceive changes as an attack on the older elements of the franchise but as an extension of the mandate of the series as a whole. At the core of every Star Trek that I have seen I have felt that there was desire to reach out to the audience across generations and give them each something of their own from the experience. To reach people across 50 years you have to be adaptable, possibly changing the veneer or and watching the world you are telling your stories in. Change is standing on the shoulders of giants and carrying on the mission.

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Re: USS DISCOVERY vs TOS E THOUGHTS

Postby SKO » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:40 pm

For what it's worth I really like the Shenzou. I can't complain about how it really looks more 24th century/Akira-ish than 23rd Century/Constitution since the NX class let that cat out of the bag. If you view it as an evolution of the NX Class, though, it's pretty sharp:
Image

Although the bridge is apparently on the bottom of the saucer. Gene Rodenberry rolls in his grave.


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