Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby nova1972x » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 am

Shaw wrote:Honestly, the best way to approach this stuff is to take everything that fans put together since TOS and throw it all out. Start with just raw data...

Seen-
    Constellation (NCC-1017)
    Defiant
    Enterprise (NCC-1701)
    Exeter
    Excalibur
    Lexington
    Hood
    Potemkin


Not seen-
    Carolina
    Farragut
    Intrepid
    Republic (1371)
    Valiant
    Yorktown

Older unseen-
    Archon
    Horizon
    Valiant

Stone Numbers-
    NCC 1709
    NCC 1631
    NCC 1703
    NCC 1672
    NCC 1864
    NCC 1697
    NCC 1701
    NCC 1718
    NCC 1685
    NCC 1700

Diagram text-
    PRIMARY PHASER L,R
    STAR SHIP MK IX/01
    CONSTITUTION CLASS

    U.S.S. ENTERPRISE
    STARSHIP CLASS
    SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.

And what do we know about the models... four models were made (33 inch, 11 foot, 3 inch and 18 inch), all different from each other and all different from the original plans (both the October 1964 and November 1964 versions). The first model to be build that was a good approximation for the 11 foot model's physical features wasn't built until 1996 (by Greg Jein for the DS9 episode "Trials and Tribbleations"), and this wasn't due to a lack of efforts by model makers (both fans and professionals) during the 30 years between 1966 and 1996. So the Constellation was the same type/class starship as the Enterprise because that was the intent AND no model replicating the 11 foot model was built in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or the first half of the 1990s.

For me, I look at it this way... we had eight ships seen (Constellation, Defiant, Enterprise, Exeter, Excalibur, Lexington, Hood, and Potemkin) and three known active from dialog (Carolina, Intrepid, and Yorktown). We know the Valiant was lost, and the Farragut and Republic were at least active in recent history. And of all of those only three had assigned numbers... Constellation (NCC-1017), Enterprise (NCC-1701) and Republic (1371, the "NCC" has always been assumed).

Also, Farragut and Constellation were flag ships (commanded by flag officers, Commodore Wesley and Commodore Decker), so these vessels were most likely equal to or better than those commanded by officers of the rank of Captain (like the Enterprise).

Keep in mind guys... Okuda, Jein and Drexler have no more connection to TOS than any of us. THEY ARE JUST FANS! Not one of them worked on TOS, so they really have no better information (or ideas) than the rest of us. And they make mistakes. I don't do canon stuff, but this info is historically accurate based on TOS.


And why is this the first post in this thread to acknowledge the existence of the USS Carolina?


Looks to me like you are using the original versions of the episodes, which is valid. I personally like the remasters for the most part, but I get where you are coming from, because I feel the exact same way about what Lucas did to the original trilogy Star Wars movies. Besides, going by the original TOS versions would save me $25! :mrgreen:

When it comes to building my models, I won't split too many hairs on the registries though, because I intend to use the registry numbers from the decal set I ordered, but I agree, we didn't actually the registries on most of them But I chalk that up to re-using the Enterprise stock footage, because back in those days, it was too expensive to either redo the registries on the models, or try to add it into the film. I'm not a film guy. I know it could have been done, but I am not sure how they would do it and it probably would have been too expensive, anyway.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby Greyryder » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:24 am

nova1972x wrote:
shiftdel wrote:
el gato wrote:
Yeah, I hadn't heard that one either


OK< I am wrong, I wrote from memory from an article that I read long ago, but searching on net, it is clear that it is not the case (the article was wrong, or I am too old to remember the things right...)

It's all good :).

And BTW, I was genuinely interested in hearing the explanation, because I hadn't heard the Constellation not being a Constitution class, before. I wasn't playing gotchya or anything like that.


I've heard the claim made more than once, over the years that the Constellation wasn't a Constitution, because it had a differently shaped superstructure. To me, that's just a variant within the class.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby jkb-1 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:09 pm

A differently shaped everything! Oddly, I idly speculated that the Constellation might be smaller in another forum a few years back... Ha! More'n a decade! see. Consensus was it couldn't be.

While looking for that, I found this interesting question about when it was decided that the Enterprise was Constitution class, along with the question of when it was decided the Space Shuttle was going to be named Constitution. Apparently, first in print by Franz Joseph, but first on screen in a small graphic Khan was looking at while in sickbay.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby el gato » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:40 pm

Shaw wrote:And why is this the first post in this thread to acknowledge the existence of the USS Carolina?


Admittedly, it's been a decade since I've sat down and watched all of TOS; it's been relegated to an episode here or there. I don't remember a reference to the USS Carolina. What episode was that from? Not challenging, just asking to help with my memory
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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby nova1972x » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:57 pm

Greyryder wrote:
nova1972x wrote:
shiftdel wrote:
I've heard the claim made more than once, over the years that the Constellation wasn't a Constitution, because it had a differently shaped superstructure. To me, that's just a variant within the class.

I never really noticed much of a difference myself.
Real world explanation is probably the different size model they used.

My head canon explanation: it was mangled by the Doomsday Machine.

jkb-1 wrote:A differently shaped everything! Oddly, I idly speculated that the Constellation might be smaller in another forum a few years back... Ha! More'n a decade! see. Consensus was it couldn't be.

While looking for that, I found this interesting question about when it was decided that the Enterprise was Constitution class, along with the question of when it was decided the Space Shuttle was going to be named Constitution. Apparently, first in print by Franz Joseph, but first on screen in a small graphic Khan was looking at while in sickbay.

So sounds like the Constitution Class was fanon, until TNG, when it was retconned.
el gato wrote:
Admittedly, it's been a decade since I've sat down and watched all of TOS; it's been relegated to an episode here or there. I don't remember a reference to the USS Carolina. What episode was that from? Not challenging, just asking to help with my memory

My theory is that the Carolina is forgotten because it isn't on any of the decal sets I've seen.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby Shaw » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:44 pm

nova1972x wrote:Looks to me like you are using the original versions of the episodes, which is valid.

The reason I don't do canon stuff is that it is constantly changing (what is canon today might not be canon tomorrow). TOS production is history, so it is fixed and has a well defined data set (between early 1964 and the end of production in 1969).


jkb-1 wrote:A differently shaped everything!

Well, that falls back to the question of compared to what?

That argument is just as valid for every model used to represent the Enterprise in TOS... they were all different from each other. Heck, most people's experiences with the AMT kit are based on the early 70s retooled version, which is quite different from the 1966 version used in TOS.

And while I know of a number of people who have attempted to research and document the 11 foot model, I know of only one person who has attempted to research and document all of the models used in TOS... me. :D And yeah, again, their all different from each other.

Here is a quick comparison of some of them..

Image

jkb-1 wrote:...but first on screen in a small graphic Khan was looking at while in sickbay.

It wasn't part of that graphic, it first appeared on a graphic being viewed by Scott in the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles".


el gato wrote:Admittedly, it's been a decade since I've sat down and watched all of TOS; it's been relegated to an episode here or there. I don't remember a reference to the USS Carolina. What episode was that from? Not challenging, just asking to help with my memory

The episode was "Friday's Child" and here is the relevant dialog...
    Uhura: Mr. Scott, another distress call from the USS Carolina.
    Scott: Ignore it.
    Uhura: Mr. Scott, the Carolina is registered in this sector.

Because people usually go off of other people's lists, it was generally forgotten. This is why I always go back to the raw data in doing my research.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby el gato » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:53 pm

Shaw wrote:
jkb-1 wrote:A differently shaped everything!

Well, that falls back to the question of compared to what?

That argument is just as valid for every model used to represent the Enterprise in TOS... they were all different from each other. Heck, most people's experiences with the AMT kit are based on the early 70s retooled version, which is quite different from the 1966 version used in TOS.

And while I know of a number of people who have attempted to research and document the 11 foot model, I know of only one person who has attempted to research and document all of the models used in TOS... me. :D And yeah, again, their all different from each other.

Here is a quick comparison of some of them..

Image

jkb-1 wrote:...but first on screen in a small graphic Khan was looking at while in sickbay.

It wasn't part of that graphic, it first appeared on a graphic being viewed by Scott in the episode "The Trouble with Tribbles".


In my head, I pictured the 33" model with a potbelly on the engineering hull (e.g. the differences in shape of the hulls were more pronounced). Must've been the angle in which the photo of it that I had seen was taken. But you did the research so you would know better than my admittedly poor memory. I will save this photo for future reference. :D

Shaw wrote:
el gato wrote:Admittedly, it's been a decade since I've sat down and watched all of TOS; it's been relegated to an episode here or there. I don't remember a reference to the USS Carolina. What episode was that from? Not challenging, just asking to help with my memory

The episode was "Friday's Child" and here is the relevant dialog...
    Uhura: Mr. Scott, another distress call from the USS Carolina.
    Scott: Ignore it.
    Uhura: Mr. Scott, the Carolina is registered in this sector.

Because people usually go off of other people's lists, it was generally forgotten. This is why I always go back to the raw data in doing my research.


Thanks! Though this is horrible. I remember the exchange. I can even hear Nichols' & Doohan's voices. I can picture the angles in which that scene was shot. The name "Carolina" still doesn't ring a bell :lol:
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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby NCC1966 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:41 pm

el gato wrote:And I have to add that we can't assume the Republic and the Farragut are Constitution Class ships. I could be wrong, but they never mentioned what class of ships they were.

I agree entirely.

el gato wrote:We all assumed they were sister ships to the Enterprise because that was the only type of Starfleet ship we saw prior to the movies.

I think it's not a secure assumption. ENT is passed before TOS therefore I wouldn't assume that the NX and the Constitution were the only ships built along that time. Certainly (although we never seen on screen) there were others.
Thanks,

Yan.

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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby el gato » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:01 am

Prior to the movies, there was nothing else but what we saw in TOS. We didn't even know how far into the future Star Trek took place
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Re: Canon Constitution Class ships (seen, or mentioned by name on screen)

Postby Tesral » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:50 am

el gato wrote:Prior to the movies, there was nothing else but what we saw in TOS. We didn't even know how far into the future Star Trek took place


Roughly 200 years, kinda, maybe, give or take, sorta. Roddenberry was purposely vague on that.

Part of the issue with seeing other ships is the technology and the budget of 1966. Every ship had to be built in the model shop and shot on set. And the budget was slender at best. So we did not see a lot of other ships. That list in Stone's office could be ships of any class. Certain persons of a pedantic bent have decided that all are Connies, based on nothing. The type that freaks out over piping labeled GNDN on the set. Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing.

gndn-stvi-xcu.jpg
gndn-stvi-xcu.jpg (68.5 KiB) Viewed 431 times


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